Electric showers, again

[Jan]

Doing a search brings up a lot of technical comment that dates back a number of years.

Does anyone have any new information on installing electric showers. Can't get through to MIRA after a dozen tries.

Thanks,

Jan

[Quillan]

You can't use them in France and why would you. Most people use an electric hot water heater which "charges" over night and gives you loads of hot water for a shower as well as the rest of the house. Indeed we typically get six showers out of one charge. You can get small electrical water heaters but they lack the power are not designed for a shower and cannot be mounted in the shower area. Useing a French hot water tank is far more economical than using a UK style electric shower and on average the French system is a tenth of the price to run.

[Chancer]

All of the preceding is correct except the bit about costing 10 times as much, for the purposes of calculation an electric shower or an electric ballon (hot water cylinder) use exactly the same amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat, in fact if heat losses are factored in the instantaneous electric shower uses less.

However the maximum puissance souscrite that EDF will now allow is 12Kva on monophase and with a 9kw electric shower if you use any other heating appliance, a kettle or the cooker you risk tripping the supply and the cost of the abonnement is massively higher just for the use of the shower.

 

[andyh4]

I have to agree with Q. Hot and Cold feeds operate direct from the mains (no header tank) so there really is no need for an electric unit that will give you a shower "dribble" when you get a full blown soaking via a hot water tank. Most of our UK friends who have visited are initially gobsmacked by the showers, which really do get you wet all over instantly.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Chancer"]

All of the preceding is correct except the bit about costing 10 times as much, for the purposes of calculation an electric shower or an electric ballon (hot water cylinder) use exactly the same amount of electricity to produce the same amount of heat, in fact if heat losses are factored in the instantaneous electric shower uses less.

However the maximum puissance souscrite that EDF will now allow is 12Kva on monophase and with a 9kw electric shower if you use any other heating appliance, a kettle or the cooker you risk tripping the supply and the cost of the abonnement is massively higher just for the use of the shower.

[/quote]

Sorry your wrong, prove it. [6]

[Chancer]

I cannot prove that I am wrong but I can prove that you are not right [:P]

All forms of electrical heating are as near as 100% efficient as can be calculated.

4184 watts will heat 1 litre of water through 1°C, doesnt matter whether its an electric shower or an electric ballon or an electric kettle.

If you factor in heat losses the ballon is less efficient as a not insignificant amount of heat is lost through the jacket, some manufacturers quote this as maintenance consumption, its non linear, the heat loss is faster the hotter it is, mine will lose all its heat over about a week, an electric shower doesnt suffer this, when you run a shower from a ballon it takes some while for the hot water to come through while it is heating up the long pipe run, an electric shower does not suffer from that.

You could argue that using HC electricity to heat a ballon saves money, it does but not as much as you think, in fact the difference is now so small, the extra abonnement cost and the extra premium that you pay for all daytime units means that unless you have night storage heaters as well you actually pay more for HC heating of hot water, the tipping point came about 3 years ago and each year since the misguided who retain HP/HC for domestic hot water lose more and more money by being tricked into thinking they are saving.

I dont like electric showers, I dont care how much RCD protection a circuit "should have" putting an a 10kw electric appliance in a wet area where naked humans stand in water and touch the controls is plain crazy to me.

This one in Peru was my favorite, a newly constructed hôtel where every guest got a 240vac shock whenever they touched any tap in the bathrooms.

 

[IMG]http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/jr7man/Electricity/DSCF0408.jpg[/IMG]

As soon as any steam built up in my shower the whole plumbing system which was ungrounded became live, yes I did use the shower despite the uninsulated wires, yes it was 240v not 110v and yes it did make my hair stand on end, I suspect that all the bathrooms were the same.

[Quillan]

Nothing wrong with that installation mate.

I was copying season one of The West Wing onto my tablet ready for a few days on the boat and waiting for some guests who are an hour or two overdue and was feeling rather cantankerous, sorry. [;-)]

[Chancer]

Waiting for overdue guests.......................

 

You should have warned me about that one [:(]

The Booking.com page says they must advise me of arrival time and keep me updated, I also ask this on the acknowledgement and travel instructions, of course very few do and even then they can be many hours outside of it, fit's rustrating to have to rush back for 15.00 because you dont know when people are coming to find people fuming on the doorstep because they got there 2 hours before the first arrival time or to wait from 15.00 to 22.00 before closing the gate to be finally woken at 1 or 2 am.

And then there is the "what time will you be leaving in the morning?" they give a time and I ask them to come to see me with the key, they may say 9am but I now know they could Knock on the door at 7am so I am always up and dressed waiting, and waiting and waiting, I may see that their car has gone but it could be only one of them gone for food or they may have gone to the boulangery and come back, i wait, I wait and finally at 10am final check out hour I go to the flat and may find the key in the door, somewhere in the flat, maybe the letter box, its always hunt the key.

The people who do this are usually the ones that depart with all the toilet rolls, kitchen rolls, teas and coffees, teaspoons etc.

[Doodle]

12 years ago when having the bathroom done out I thought about an electric shower until told it was illegal. My reason was that we have an electric cooker that's also used as a heat source and on continually throughout the year and so for drinks, washing pots & other hot water needs I boil the kettle thus only needing the hot water tank heated for showers.

I'm not great at maths so decided to work it out in a practical fashion ie noting the meter reading twice daily ie when HC kicked in at 22:30 & HP at 06:30.

I found that overnight the cooker & fridge/freezer used 3 units of power but heating the tank used an extra 11 units for loads of hot water that went unused.

For some years now I flick the hot water switch on for between 1/2 - 1 hour each night at 22:30 (More than enough for two of us for showers). In total the fridge/freezer/cooker & hot water now uses between 2-4 units maximum each night. Now this might not be a huge saving but it does make a difference over the year being an all electric household.

Sorry to have gone on a bit but thought it might help.

Mrs KG

[Lehaut]

"You could argue that using HC electricity to heat a ballon saves money, it does but not as much as you think, in fact the difference is now so small, the extra abonnement cost and the extra premium that you pay for all daytime units means that unless you have night storage heaters as well you actually pay more for HC heating of hot water, the tipping point came about 3 years ago and each year since the misguided who retain HP/HC for domestic hot water lose more and more money by being tricked into thinking they are saving."

Being one of the "misguided" I have just checked my last bill.

Having now wasted 30 mins of my life I will never get back, I find that on my last bill I saved 6 Euros by being on HC/HP compared to all one tarrif, If I keep this up over the full year I will come out 11 Euros ahead. No idea it was so close and we are anal about using washing machine, dishwasher and 2 ballons overnight!!

[suein56]

Chancer wrote :

You could argue that using HC electricity to heat a ballon saves money, it does but not as much as you think, in fact the difference is now so small, the extra abonnement cost and the extra premium that you pay for all daytime units means that unless you have night storage heaters as well you actually pay more for HC heating of hot water

Having acquired our house 3 years ago with split hc/hp of 5 hours hc overnight and 3 hours in the afternoon I was fairly confident that we were 'winning', albeit slightly, over the extra we paid for that contract. Now we have received notification from EDF that they are rationalising contracts and that our afternoon hc top-up will be withdrawn.

This has made me realise that we will, in future, be losing out as we have electric convectors and an insert for heating. The welcome hc boost we received between 14h & 17h counted for a lot as the downstairs heaters were tanked up between those hours meaning we could delay lighting the fire until around 17h.

So it now seems that lighting the fire earlier will be a sound idea; so we might think of ditching hc/hp in favour of just hp and limiting the overnight water heating to a few hours as, mostly, there are just the 2 of us here.

Food for serious thought as I do not wish to pay EDF more than I need to.

Edit : Just done the calculation for the last 12 months and it seems we saved 42€39 with our present set-up as against a straightforward no hc/hp contract. But as our contract is due to change to one overnight 8 hour allowance of cheap-rate hc from 1st September I shall be interested to see how much our bills rise when we lose our present cheap-rate afternoon top-up.

Sue

[Jan]

THANK YOU ALL for your very helpful comments. The electrical systems seem to be very complicated. Now, the next step is to see about Photo-voltaics to heat the water. It is a major learning curve but we must do all we can to cope with the issues of climate change.

Thanks again,

Jan

[Quillan]

[quote user="Jan"]Now, the next step is to see about Photo-voltaics to heat the water. It is a major learning curve but we must do all we can to cope with the issues of climate change. Thanks again, Jan[/quote]

Why, surly you would be better off using solar water heating panels and an accumulator?

If your serious about generating electricity to run a power shower then your need a 10kw system (based on the name of maker you gave having an average of 9kw or greater consumption) although that is cutting it a bit fine. If you want to be doubly safe then go to 20kw. Below is a link to give you an idea of a UK system and costs in the UK. You can probably add another 20 to 30% for instalation in France.

http://www.solarenergyalliance.com/prices_for_solar%20installations_10kW_20kW_30kW_50kW_150kW.html

Your going to need a big roof.

Sorry but I do not believe in man made climate change and even if it were true I will be long dead. You should be more worried about fossil fuel running out which is more likely to happen first but again I will be long dead.

[Théière]

Q, read the comment as looking to heat the water not necessarily for the shower to be powered by PV.

Do you remember I looked at and asked the same a while back and the low energy long time PV idea to constantly heat the water. Didn't follow it up as it's a lot more efficient with solar water heating.

Whilst I too believe man has little impact compared the the sun and volcanic eruptions on global warming there is inescapable evidence that Co2 is causing acidification of the oceans which will on it's current path kill fish by 2050 and cause huge problem because the oceans are Co2 sinks of our world, you may well be gone but we can't ignore what we are doing so reducing the causes of Co2 should be looked into.

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