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FAQ - Oil Heating, Hot water production and plumbing “funnies” in France


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As far as I am aware, you cannot operate your AHI or ALI on a sealed system, and thus in theory cannot install it legally here.

However, I would contact Villager and ask them for further guidance. The problem may be the need for at least one "heatleak" radiator in the circuit. This is also why backburners and AGA type things (yuck) are fairly uncommon, and tend to be installed by expats working in a "grey" area.

If you wish to go ahead, I would suggest you bring everything you need that cannot be obtained here, like the header tank.  I think you will have BIG problems with a ballvalve here - 7 bar of mains pressure is just going to open it!!

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Not certain about soft solder not being able to withstand pressure.

I have soldered in the UK up to 10 bar and in fact standard copper compression are generally listed to 10 bar

My home in Uk will in the evening go to 3 bar and never once have I had a burst joint.

I have never calculated the expansion of ice in a closed pipe to see what the pressure would be and would need to see if a joint exploded due to this increase

.

I have had minus 15 deg in France and not one soft soldered joint went, mind you I insulate very care fully

As a precaution one may like to use hard solder but you need a good torch

The point on heating oil will burn at 32 sec and not 28 as in UK so the jets have to be set differently and then gases analised , how ever the Boiler should have the right jets but it will need setting up.

With regards to the Guy with the system he fills from a high point, remember it is a circulating pump with a very low head and which I assume covers the circuit with out pumping over ( a common problem in an open UK circuit that the pump has been over specified) Best thing is to convert to a sealed system and then there are no problems, and dont forget if you leave the house for a long time,have ANTIGEL put in the ch system then you have no worries, as a frost stat is no good if your RCB has tripped
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Soft-solder is not allowed on Sanitary fittings here. You must use lead-free, which means 97% Tin - Hard solder. It is also NOT a good idea to use soft solder on French Sanitary plumbing, because the pressure is generally between 5 and 7 bar. Soft-Solder at 65deg C is only specified to 7 bar.

Soft solder is fine for Central Heating and is widely used, for ease and cost.

Injectors (Gicleurs) are not always available for every burner to run on paraffin. So my advice is to buy a burner/boiler sold for Red diesel fioul. Chances are you will still have to change the size of injector to suit the output requirements as I have already stated. They only cost 5-7 Euros. Unfortunately, few bother, to the detriment of the client's pockets or comfort.

I have also mentioned the need for an inhibitor, and these are available with/without an antifreeze in them. Provided the system is adequately insulated, there should be no problems with freezing. We always use two frost stats, one sensing the air near the boiler if that is sited in an outbuilding or similar, and one on the return pipe in the form of a pipe stat.

I'm not sure why the RCB should trip - the Central Heating should be on its own 6A breaker....

 

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The plumber tendering for putting a boiler and central heating in our house came up with an alternative that would cost an extra 7,000 euros. I asked for a translation / explanation of what this was from the French half of our architectes and she came up with:

 

The pompe à chaleur can replace the gaz. Still we need a boiler, but the principle is to capture the energy in the soil, by a trench in the garden. This system is of course more expensive than a gaz installation, but the source of energy is free and you don't need to buy the gaz every year. Furthermore, it allows the cooling of the house during the summer. The plancher chauffant is also rafraîchissant.

 

The English half of our architectes  explains:

This is a fairly old technology but has only recently become economic, partly due to government intervention giving grants to encourage wider use of the system.

 

The systems works by taking a small amount of residual heat from an area of ground with pipes in trenches at about 1 metre depth. 

 

This heat is then concentrated by the heat pump to raise the temperature in the central heating system. 

 

The rafraîchissant  bit means that the system can work in reverse and take heat from the house to cool it in summer.

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[quote]The plumber tendering for putting a boiler and central heating in our house came up with an alternative that would cost an extra 7,000 euros. I asked for a translation / explanation of what this was f...[/quote]

Generally operating a heat pump takes energy, though you get more out than you directly put in. The figures most often quoted are for every 1Kw (electricity) put in you get 4Kw out. Thus you will still get running costs, though these would be about a quarter of using electricity to get the heat.

(My understanding at least).

Ian

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oft-solder is not allowed on Sanitary fittings here. You must use lead-free, which means 97% Tin - Hard solder. STATEMENT WAS I DID NOT KNOW WHAT PRESUURE SOFT SOLDER WOULD STAND THANK YOU FOR EXPLANATION generally between 5 and 7 bar. Soft-Solder at 65deg C is only specified to 7 bar.

LEAD FREE IS STANDARD ACROSS EUROPE

IS IT NOT STANDARD TO FIT A PRV AFTER THE INCOMING ISOLATION VALVE TO REDUCE THE PRESSURE TO 3 BAR?

Soft solder is fine for Central Heating and is widely used, for ease and cost.

I have also mentioned the need for an inhibitor, and these are available with/without an antifreeze in them. Provided the system is adequately insulated, there should be no problems with freezing. We always use two frost stats, one sensing the air near the boiler if that is sited in an outbuilding or similar, and one on the return pipe in the form of a pipe stat.

I'm not sure why the RCB should trip - the Central Heating should be on its own 6A breaker.... RESIDUAL CIRCUIT BREAKER (NOT CIRCUIT BREAKER) OR YOU MAVE HAVE A DIFFERENT TERM. IF YOU LEAVE YOUR HOME UNATTENDED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME IN THE WINTER THEN AN ELECTRIC STORM MAY TRIP IT RENDERING THE STATS INOPERATIVE

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Never known a quality MCB trip due to a storm. MCBs are designed to trip if the load exceeds a certain current for a certain time. They are thermal devices, too, so not "sensitive".  How a storm causes the load to increase is absolutely beyond me. In the worst case, a BIG central heating system would draw less than 2A (about 460W). If you have a 6A MCB, how the heck do you more than treble the current draw?

I think someone's been to listen to the old wives...

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Never known a quality RCB trip due to a storm. RCBs are designed to trip if the load exceeds a certain current for a certain time. They are thermal devices, too, so not "sensitive". How a storm causes the load to increase is absolutely beyond me. In the worst case, a BIG central heating system would draw less than 2A (about 460W). If you have a 6A RCB, how the heck do you more than treble the current draw?

I think someone's been to listen to the old wives...

Sorry Opel fruit but not the case we are not as explained talking MCB but RCB or RCD you have highlighted MCB

1 MCB Minature circuit breaker works on overload and thermal device

2 RCB or RCD Residual current device works on earth fault leakage due to detection of different amperage detected in the incoming phase and return neutral

Available in standard 10 ma 30 ma 100 ma 300 ma which is selected for safety and calculated on Loop impedance test

3 RCBO Combination of both the above

It is common in electric storms to have a RCB or RCBO to trip

A possible addition to the above would be a voltage surge protector which are fitted on the Din rail and wired according to manufactures spec

If you require more info collect Le Grande catalogue and full tech spec given of all the above PS I have a young wife !!!!!
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  • 4 weeks later...
Interested to read all these remarks on copper plumbing because our local DIY shed(M.Bricolage)stocks vast numbers of compression fittings in the pipe sizes mentioned and not just connectors but adaptors(for changing pipe sizes and materials)and also bends and tees.And also they stock all these by three different manufacturers.
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Hi Anton, you said that a Chevie V8 has less parts, but an 850 Mini (proper Mini, not the new krap) will go a lot further on a gallon of petrol no mater if it's 16 or 20 fluid ounces to the pint than your V8 . It may well be a swine to change the radiator, but the clutch is a breeze and it GOES ROUND CORNERS TOO !

Mini's rule KO,

John.

P.S. You can count the gravel as well!

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as a newbie, ( fantastic, makes me feel young enough to start this adventure ) i am sorry if this has been asked before, but i've looked for several hours on the forum now for any info on woodburners/multifuel stoves with an attached boiler to run approx 6 radiators. maybe 15000-20000 btu. i am told  a stainless steel boiler is best.

i would want to use it to heat domestic water as well if possible.

i am about to start renovating in 87, and have been told both that it's better to buy in uk and transport, and also it's better to buy locally in france. i appreciate that locally bought ones will have better support should anything go wrong, but uk ones are a "far better quality, and give no problems".

any advice on sourcing, and probable costs would be gratefully received, or just help me on where to look, as this topic will have come up before.

 

thanks

 

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[quote]as a newbie, ( fantastic, makes me feel young enough to start this adventure ) i am sorry if this has been asked before, but i've looked for several hours on the forum now for any info on woodburners/...[/quote]

Just something else to add into your thought process. I intended having a wood burner with a boiler attached and was advised that the calorific value of wood is not very high, so to get the heat I needed for water and central heating, I would probably end up doing numerous journeys to the woodshed every evening. As my plan was to sit and watch the flames rather than carry wood, I have revised it so that I have gas (and solar eventually) for the CH which will turn off when the stove is heating the room.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
John,

If the wood is dry and decent quality, we use oak or chestnut, then there is plenty of heat available, wet wood will use up to 80% of the clorific value just to boil off the water before it starts to heat your toes.

The one thing I have found invaluable for use with a wood fired CH system is a wife who enjoys stoking the fire, on a really cold day she will get through about a barrowfull in 24 hours, but we have to wear very little cothes since it gets so hot.

A comment about the system that has an open pipe at the top, as someone said the pump is really a circulator and to be able to pump water out of the top of the pipe it will need to find water from somewhere, the harder it pumps the harder it sucks and so runs balanced. You could upset this by fitting a head tank in the wrong place and giving it extra water to pump out as you would on a badly designed UK system, this is called 'priming'.

I hope anyone fitting a sealed system and using wood (or coal) fits a safety valve somewhere, an exploding boiler is not a pretty sight. At least with a vented system if the pump fails (rcd trips in a storm!)the head tank makeup will keep some water in the boiler and stop it destroying itself, provided the pipework had been designed correctly.

Keep up the good tips.

Regards

Peter
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Dear all,

I have a few questions regarding hot water, my partner and I are going to be starting a B&B next year and are currently debating how to produce hot water for the rooms.

We know that electricity is more expernsive but my question is would it turn out to be more cost efficient considering it can be turned off as and when we don't need it.  So if we only want to heat 2 rooms and not 6 in January would it be more economical to use electric heaters and not oil ones?

Any opinions

Thanks

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I need more info on your intentions, and what you currently have and wish to keep or not keep. If you already have a serviceable oil fired system with radiators, why do you want to change.... or do you wish to add to the system? If you want to restrict radiators during non-occupancy, CdH owners install TRVs in all rooms and set them back to the Frost setting. This retains an airing effect, but doesn't waste energy.

What size Ballon do you have, assuming it is seperate? How many rooms do you need to provide for, and will they have baths? What about your own needs?

Spell out what you intend/need/desire. I will try to provide a guide.

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  • 1 month later...
Thanks again Opel fruit for your invaluable information. Thanks to your help, our self built CH system is working away and keeping the temperature levels ok room by room. I have one slight problem which niggles a bit and which has happend three days running. The system runs fine all day (We don't have the system on timer just TRVs and one room with a room stat and no TRV). Each morning, the system has cut out during the night. A quick push of the burner reset button and it fires up and works away all day.

Any ideas at all? Failing which, I'll just see if it sorts itself out over the next week or two or resign myself to going out to the boiler room each morning to reset (or train one of the dogs to do it).

www.leschenauds.com
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The only reason the burner locks out is because the flame has died. This can be for a few reasons, the most common being too much air (the flame literally blows out) or restricted fuel delivery from the tank.

As far as too much air is concerned, and assuming you have the C09 burner, you need to set the secondary air supply as per the Deville manual. This is fairly non-critical, but does need to be set in the region shown for the output you require. (You have which size and pattern gicleur?)

Then you set the primary air using the Allen key supplied with the burner. It is normal to set the oil pressure FIRST, using a screwdriver on the pressure regulator. You then assess the flame - open the sliding door on the observation hole and check that the flame is a series of definite licks and are orange with no white or blue in them. If you have these, reduce the air using the Allen key until the flame pattern and colour are correct.

If you have a problem with fuel delivery, observe the oil filter. The oil level should fill the glass completely at rest, and once the burner is running, the oil level should not drop by any more than about half way down the glass. There should be NO bubbles at all.

See what you find.... 

 

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Hi Opel fruit,

We have the same boiler/burner as you, bought from Leroy Merlin. The system has now been up and running successfully for the past week or so and everyting heats up as it should and no leaks however, we can run the system all day without problems, boiler cutting in and out as necessary but running overnight results in the boiler tripping out. Easily remedied by going into the boilerhouse in the morning and pushing the red button on the burner after which it fires up and runs fine all day.

Wondered if you had experienced this problem and knew waht was might be causing it. If not, it is a problem I could live with.

Brian Owen
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