Miki Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Received our bill today, what a shock !!After having laughed (nervously !)at the increase in our neighbours bill but not having seen why it was so large, I hesitated before opening ours, fearing the shock might put me off going out to lunch! (Bit dramatic there !) anyway XXXXX euros poked its 'orrible figures at me from the face of the paper facture!!!Wow I thought (and a sharp intake of breath) ...checked last years and it was 450 euros less in 2004. Wow (I thought again) on further inspection it showed, that from this year, Ordures Menageres was now included. Last years "bins" bill was 185 euros, so a thumpimg increase of 265 euros ! Rang Impots in Saint Malo and they said I had to know that this years bin bill was now based on the value of ones house regardless of how many people lived in the house. We argued (knowing all along the sod would win the argument so....)and after a few minutes, he said to ring the Maire in our local town and to ask him to explain how the figure was arrived at. Of course the Maire's secretary said he was out (he appears only to be there, when the local journal want the weekly snap shot of him doing this and that)but she ventured the answer that anyone who could afford a large house should pay for those with smaller houses (even though they may have larger families and bigger salary) !!Our house was not that dear when we bought it actually I said...but it fell on deaf ears. Anyway, I wondered aloud to her about how it worked and I said, what happens if a 4 bedroom place had 6 people all working and bringing in big euros and a house such as ours, had just a couple of us earning a living from our B&B and were several thousand behind in earnings from the other family's situation and we also offered a lot less in annual rubbish, how does that seem to be correct or even just ? Hmmmm she said, too bad, you have a big house and valued more, so you should pay more. So again, it is another nice increase for some of simple working folks, added to the annual social tax bill, impot and all the insurances required plus cotisations for just about everything, we need several thousands of euros just to open the door!Oh well, as someone said the other day, it is so much cheaper here innit !Well oh no it ain't, ask all of us who are here working and self employed or otherwise AND declare ourselves to the neccessaary peeps.So should it be on house value or on Impot related pay in the individual house? There are several French couples around here, who live in their big house, as that is what they had to have due to the family size and now they find themselves in a house that is valued high and are going to have to pay more for their bins than families with a few earners and miles more rubbish every week,OK, we will "pay up and look big" but even still what a wopping increase for no more service than we had last year ! Who else is now paying as such ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesLauriers Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Sounds like you want to introduce Poll Tax, charge for the number of people living in the house and producing the rubbish.Didn't they try that somewhere else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miki Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 "...Sounds like you want to introduce Poll Tax, charge for the number of people living in the house and producing the rubbish"Well I did oppose the Poll Tax, in so much as the rich living in their big houses with huge cars and salaries to match, were, in some cases legally being allowed to pay the same as the family in a local council house !I am not saying we should pay less but surely as we will no doubt be earning less than some families with smaller (and possibly nicer places !) it is a bit rich that a family bringing in a lot more money in a house simply valued less can pay a lot less than us ? What families in Dinard and Saint Malo and along the coast will have to pay, I have no idea.Earnings related here was and is, the benchmark of how most things are equated to here, as you are fully aware I'm sure. So anyone know what has made them change track on this billing for rubbish collection? Surely the relationship between the two is bizarre, rubbish is rubbish, big house or small house, only difference being ability to pay or amount of rubbish, which of was the old way around here for billing. ALL our previous and present houses were billed by number of persons in a house. So no thought of poll tax in my thinking.I'll pay the same as the others but the reasoning behind this is somewhat flawed I reckon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 HiI think the british poll tax was the fairest way of paying local taxes. It is a pity that Mrs Thatcher's government did not put the left wing led riots down once and for all. It is fair that everyone over 18 should pay local taxes after all they use the local services. It really brasses me off that I have to pay a lot more "taxe fonciere" than a gang of deadlegs down the road who use a lot more services than I do. I don't care how much people earn or what kind of house they live in ect they should we should all pay the same, then it might encourage people to be a bit more enterprising. The one big problem with France is that you have to spend 50% of your time thinking about making more money and 50% of your time thinking how to keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Yes, we always seem to be having to pay something. I don't know if this should be here or in the gardening section! Apparently Georges Clémenceau said :"La France est un pays extrêmement fertile car on y plante des fonctionnaires et il y pousse des impôts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 2004 tax fonciere 84 euro. this year 486 euro in deux sevre in charente region. whats happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 WoodyWhich part of your bill has increased, one of the many individual charges, or the basic valuation of your property?One of the good things about the French Fnciere and Habitation bills is that they do show year on year comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 what do they base the valuation of the house on? Are there valuation bands like there are in the UK, to state what the value was at a particular time? Or if you've just bought a house, is the value what you paid for it, which after all, is the market value?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derf Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 what do they base the valuation of the house on? Are there valuation bandsAFAIK it is based on a theoretical rental value of the property, I think the rates in the UK also used to be based on a similar line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 what do they base the valuation of the house on?It is very similar to the old rateable value system in the UK. Each property has a calculated rental value, which is revised whenever any major work is done. The permis de construire / declaration de travaux tips them off. A sale can also alert them to undeclared changes since the last registration.The value takes into account the size, "quality" and condition of the property. Things such as additional bathrooms and pools all add to the bill.The notional rental value is inflated each year in line with inflation. So even if the council leaves their tax rates unchanged the bill increases automatically. Edit : Derf beat me to the reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 what does this mean on my taxe fonciere bill. left hand collumn 2004 adresse 5232 base 142 cotisation 212005 adresse 5232 base 1139 cotisation 171what does the base and cotisation mean. because last year tax was 84 euro and this year 486 euro. thankyou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 The base is the notional rental value , which in your case has increased by a factor of eight. Have you been improving the property and as a consequence submitted a form H1?The cotisation of 171 is the "subscription" to one of the councils, there are usually three of four individual subs, to local, regional, inter communal authorities, chambre agriculture etc etc . If you find them all they will come to your total of 486 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0zeb100ddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Hi just out of interest how much "taxe fonciere"does everyone pay? Woody's €486 seems a bit low to me I have just had my first bill for a new house €1491 ahrggggggggggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 thankyou bjsliv. yes I did fill out a " h1" form last year to change a garage on side of house into a room. now living space of house is 68 m2 .not a big house you see. i think i filled form out incorrect and put 80 m2 for "surface totale des pieces et annexes affectees exclusivement a l'habitation". not sure if i was measuring outside walls to get 80m2 at the time. i read somewhere the tax goes up alot if the house is over 70m2. could i request another h1 form from the tax office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Hi just out of interest how much "taxe fonciere" does everyone pay?It entirely depends on the type, size of property, location, and the expenditure of the commune.The only thing you can usually say is that, the more remote and unfashionable the place is the less you pay. Even then some villages can find they are paying for the pet projects of a long gone Conseil Municipale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 to BJSLIV. do you know if i could request another H1 form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Re Form H1You can download one youself off the nethttp://www.impot.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public;jsessionid=AGPK20OI32YRVQFI22UCFFWAVDT3YIV3?paf_dm=popup&paf_gm=content&paf_gear_id=100006&sfid=05&temNvlPopUp=true&action=openImprime&docOid=ficheformulaire_941However submitting one unexpectedly would no probably throw the system into confusion. I would suggest a visit to the hotel des impots with a copy of your previous effort, and seek clarification. I personally wouldn't fancy trying to justify a reduction in writing...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 to BJSLIVthankyou for your help. be good my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moon Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 124 euros last year 129 euros this year, oh the joys of the Indre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike1958 Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 I have just received my first Tax Foncieres bill (sent to the UK) whcih was a bit of a shock. I had put a finger in the air sum of 1000 euro in my budget but it has come in quite a bit more.My questions are:1. As i only use the house for holidays am i entitled to a discount (2nd home)2. Is there an ability to pay monthly rather than annually3. Where does the base figure come from (the actual amount payable is a percentage of this)Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote]I have just received my first Tax Foncieres bill (sent to the UK) whcih was a bit of a shock. I had put a finger in the air sum of 1000 euro in my budget but it has come in quite a bit more. My ques...[/quote]I believe the answers to 1 and 2 are no and wasn't 3 covered earlier in the thread? Quote helpful member: "The base is the notional rental value".Why would you get discount for a second home? Is that done in any country? You are usually liable for more tax, one way or another, rather than less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesLauriers Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote]I have just received my first Tax Foncieres bill (sent to the UK) whcih was a bit of a shock. I had put a finger in the air sum of 1000 euro in my budget but it has come in quite a bit more. My ques...[/quote]You can pay in 10 instalments, see the second paragraph on page 2 of the demand.The valuation is based upon the amount of land and the size of the house, much like the old UK rates system. Looking at the H1 form for my house it appears that they use a points system to aid the valuation, and points are awarded for toilets, sinks, baths, showers etc, even a shower above a bath gets extra points.Whenever you add extra rooms or facilities then extra points are created, even patios and terraces add to the bill.The charges seem to vary widely across France with some areas being very expensive. The charges in many cases are rising above the inflation rate and refuse bills appear to be escalating in much the same way as they did in the UK.We did get two refuse and one recycling collections a week, now we get none and have to take our refuse to a central point, but the cost has risen by 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 2. Is there an ability to pay monthly rather than annually?You can pay annually, from January to October , but you will have to pay the current bill in full by October, and then sign up for the following year. Details are on the back of the bill. Personally I don't see any advantage.As Debra says there is no discount for holday / second homes, unlike the system which applied in the UK until this year. In fact in France some communes charge a surcharge on the Taxe D'habitation for holiday homes. There is also no discount for the rubbish collection charge. Friends of ours have worked out that it costs them nearly £50 for each bag of rubbish as they don't get over as often as often as they would like!Thanks Debra for pointing out my previous comment concerning the basis of calculation.The good news is that the Taxe D'habitation bills will be along shortly..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 BJSLIV You can pay annually, from January to October , but you will have to pay the current bill in full by October, and then sign up for the following year. Details are on the back of the bill. Personally I don't see any advantage.I didn't know about this - we were just told we had to pay it (probably because its the first one). However, there doesn't seem much point if the instalments are basically a year in advance - may as well just pay them into your own budget account and receive the interest yourself!BJSLIV Thanks Debra for pointing out my previous comment concerning the basis of calculation.You're welcome - I would have posted your name along with the quote but I can never remember it!! Hence "Quote helpful member:....". The forum was going too slow to page back two pages to see it again (took ages to find your post and copy the quote!). What does it stand for, and I may have more of a chance of remembering it??!!BJSLIV The good news is that the Taxe D'habitation bills will be along shortly.....Getting a bit worried about this now, as it seems from this thread that last year's bill, which we were quoted, may be totally unrealistic as an estimate for our budget! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 may as well just pay them into your own budget account and receive the interest yourselfSpoken like a true resident of Yorkshire ! which mirror my thoughts exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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