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Good Old Tax Fonciere !


Miki
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Received our bill today, what a shock !!

After having laughed (nervously !)at the increase in our neighbours bill but not having seen why it was so large, I hesitated before opening ours, fearing the shock might put me off going out to lunch! (Bit dramatic there !) anyway XXXXX euros poked its 'orrible figures at me from the face of the paper facture!!!

Wow I thought (and a sharp intake of breath) ...checked last years and it was 450 euros less in 2004. Wow (I thought again) on further inspection it showed, that from this year, Ordures Menageres was now included. Last years "bins" bill was 185 euros, so a thumpimg increase of 265 euros !

Rang Impots in Saint Malo and they said I had to know that this years bin bill was now based on the value of ones house regardless of how many people lived in the house.

We argued (knowing all along the sod would win the argument so....)and after a few minutes, he said to ring the Maire in our local town and to ask him to explain how the figure was arrived at. Of course the Maire's secretary said he was out (he appears only to be there, when the local journal want the weekly snap shot of him doing this and that)but she ventured the answer that anyone who could afford a large house should pay for those with smaller houses (even though they may have larger families and bigger salary) !!

Our house was not that dear when we bought it actually I said...but it fell on deaf ears. Anyway, I wondered aloud to her about how it worked and I said, what happens if a 4 bedroom place had 6 people all working and bringing in big euros and a house such as ours, had just a couple of us earning a living from our B&B and were several thousand behind in earnings from the other family's situation and we also offered a lot less in annual rubbish, how does that seem to be correct or even just ?

Hmmmm she said, too bad, you have a big house and valued more, so you should pay more. So again, it is another nice increase for some of simple working folks, added to the annual social tax bill, impot and all the insurances required plus cotisations for just about everything, we need several thousands of euros just to open the door!

Oh well, as someone said the other day, it is so much cheaper here innit !Well oh no it ain't, ask all of us who are here working and self employed or otherwise AND declare ourselves to the neccessaary peeps.

So should it be on house value or on Impot related pay in the individual house? There are several French couples around here, who live in their big house, as that is what they had to have due to the family size and now they find themselves in a house that is valued high and are going to have to pay more for their bins than families with a few earners and miles more rubbish every week,

OK, we will "pay up and look big" but even still what a wopping increase for no more service than we had last year ! Who else is now paying as such ?

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"...Sounds like you want to introduce Poll Tax, charge for the number of people living in the house and producing the rubbish"

Well I did oppose the Poll Tax, in so much as the rich living in their big houses with huge cars and salaries to match, were, in some cases legally being allowed to pay the same as the family in a local council house !

I am not saying we should pay less but surely as we will no doubt be earning less than some families with smaller (and possibly nicer places !) it is a bit rich that a family bringing in a lot more money in a house simply valued less can pay a lot less than us ? What families in Dinard and Saint Malo and along the coast will have to pay, I have no idea.

Earnings related here was and is, the benchmark of how most things are equated to here, as you are fully aware I'm sure. So anyone know what has made them change track on this billing for rubbish collection? Surely the relationship between the two is bizarre, rubbish is rubbish, big house or small house, only difference being ability to pay or amount of rubbish, which of was the old way around here for billing. ALL our previous and present houses were billed by number of persons in a house. So no thought of poll tax in my thinking.

I'll pay the same as the others but the reasoning behind this is somewhat flawed I reckon....

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Hi

I think the british poll tax was the fairest way of paying local taxes. It is a pity that Mrs Thatcher's government did not put the left wing led riots down once and for all. It is fair that everyone over 18 should pay local taxes after all they use the local services. It really brasses me off that I have to pay a lot more "taxe fonciere" than a gang of deadlegs down the road who use a lot more services than I do. I don't care how much people earn or what kind of house they live in ect they should we should all pay the same, then it might encourage people to be a bit more enterprising. The one big problem with France is that you have to spend 50% of your time thinking about making more money and 50% of your time thinking how to keep it.

 

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what do they base the valuation of the house on?  Are there valuation bands like there are in the UK, to state what the value was at a particular time?  Or if you've just bought a house, is the value what you paid for it, which after all, is the market value??
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what do they base the valuation of the house on?

It is very similar to the old rateable value system in the UK.

Each property has a calculated rental value, which is revised whenever any major work is done. The permis de construire / declaration de travaux tips them off. A sale can also alert them to undeclared changes since the last registration.

The value takes into account the size, "quality" and condition of the property. Things such as additional bathrooms and pools all add to the bill.The notional rental value is inflated each year in line with inflation. So even if the council leaves their tax rates  unchanged the bill increases automatically.

 

Edit : Derf beat me to the reply

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what does this mean on my taxe fonciere bill. left hand collumn

 

2004  adresse  5232

         base  142

         cotisation   21

2005   adresse    5232

         base       1139

         cotisation   171

what does the  base and cotisation mean. because last year tax was 84 euro and this year 486 euro. thankyou

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The base is the notional rental value , which in your case has increased by a factor of eight. Have you been improving the property and as a consequence submitted a form H1?

The cotisation of 171 is the "subscription" to one of the councils, there are usually three of four individual subs, to local, regional, inter communal authorities, chambre agriculture etc etc .

If you find them all they will come to your total of 486

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thankyou bjsliv. yes I did fill out a " h1"  form last year to change a garage on side of house into a room. now living space of house is 68 m2 .not a big house you see. i think i filled form out incorrect and put 80 m2 for  "surface totale des pieces et annexes  affectees exclusivement a l'habitation". not sure if i was measuring outside walls to get  80m2 at the time. i read somewhere the tax goes up alot if the house is over 70m2. could i request another h1 form from the tax office.
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Hi just out of interest how much "taxe fonciere" does everyone pay?

It entirely depends on the type, size of property, location, and the expenditure of the commune.

The only thing you can usually say is that, the more remote and unfashionable the place is the less you pay. Even then some villages can find they are paying for the pet projects of a long gone Conseil Municipale.

 

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Re Form H1

You can download one youself off the net

http://www.impot.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public;jsessionid=AGPK20OI32YRVQFI22UCFFWAVDT3YIV3?paf_dm=popup&paf_gm=content&paf_gear_id=100006&sfid=05&temNvlPopUp=true&action=openImprime&docOid=ficheformulaire_941

However submitting one unexpectedly would no probably throw the system into confusion.

I would suggest a visit to the hotel des impots with a copy of your previous effort, and seek clarification. I personally wouldn't fancy trying to justify a reduction in writing......

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I have just received my first Tax Foncieres bill (sent to the UK) whcih was a bit of a shock. I had put a finger in the air sum of 1000 euro in my budget  but it has come in quite a bit more.

My questions are:

1. As i only use the house for holidays am i entitled to a discount (2nd home)

2. Is there an ability to pay monthly rather than annually

3. Where does the base figure come from (the actual amount payable is a percentage of this)

Regards,

 

Mike

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[quote]I have just received my first Tax Foncieres bill (sent to the UK) whcih was a bit of a shock. I had put a finger in the air sum of 1000 euro in my budget but it has come in quite a bit more. My ques...[/quote]

I believe the answers to 1 and 2 are no and wasn't 3 covered earlier in the thread?  Quote helpful member:   "The base is the notional rental value".

Why would you get discount for a second home?  Is that done in any country?  You are usually liable for more tax, one way or another, rather than less!

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[quote]I have just received my first Tax Foncieres bill (sent to the UK) whcih was a bit of a shock. I had put a finger in the air sum of 1000 euro in my budget but it has come in quite a bit more. My ques...[/quote]

You can pay in 10 instalments, see the second paragraph on page 2 of the demand.

The valuation is based upon the amount of land and the size of the house, much like the old UK rates system. Looking at the H1 form for my house it appears that they use a points system to aid the valuation, and points are awarded for toilets, sinks, baths, showers etc, even a shower above a bath gets extra points.

Whenever you add extra rooms or facilities then extra points are created, even patios and terraces add to the bill.

The charges seem to vary widely across France with some areas being very expensive. The charges in many cases are rising above the inflation rate and refuse bills appear to be escalating in much the same way as they did in the UK.

We did get two refuse and one recycling collections a week, now we get none and have to take our refuse to a central point, but the cost has risen by 20%.
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2. Is there an ability to pay monthly rather than annually?

You can pay annually, from January to October , but you will have to pay the current bill in full by October, and then sign up for the following year. Details are on the back of the bill. Personally I don't see any advantage.

As Debra says there is no discount for holday  / second homes, unlike the system which applied in the UK until this year. In fact in France some communes charge a surcharge on the Taxe D'habitation for holiday homes. There is also no discount for the rubbish collection charge. Friends of ours have worked out that it costs them nearly £50 for each bag of rubbish as they don't get over as often as often as they would like!

Thanks Debra for pointing out my previous comment concerning the basis of calculation.

The good news is that the Taxe D'habitation bills will be along shortly.....

 

 

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BJSLIV You can pay annually, from January to October , but you will have to pay the current bill in full by October, and then sign up for the following year. Details are on the back of the bill. Personally I don't see any advantage.

I didn't know about this - we were just told we had to pay it (probably because its the first one).  However, there doesn't seem much point if the instalments are basically a year in advance - may as well just pay them into your own budget account and receive the interest yourself!

BJSLIV Thanks Debra for pointing out my previous comment concerning the basis of calculation.

You're welcome - I would have posted your name along with the quote but I can never remember it!!  Hence "Quote helpful member:....".    The forum was going too slow to page back two pages to see it again (took ages to find your post and copy the quote!).  What does it stand for, and I may have more of a chance of remembering it??!!

BJSLIV The good news is that the Taxe D'habitation bills will be along shortly.....

Getting a bit worried about this now, as it seems from this thread that last year's bill, which we were quoted, may be totally unrealistic as an estimate for our budget!

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