Tax forms - do we need them?

[Rob G]

Hi,

Resident in France since end Nov 2005, no income whatsoever (France or UK) since then (other than allocation familiale). Do we need to fill in a tax return, and if so what forms do we need and how do I get them?

Thanks,

Rob

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Rob G"]Hi,

Resident in France since end Nov 2005, no income whatsoever (France or UK) since then (other than allocation familiale). Do we need to fill in a tax return, and if so what forms do we need and how do I get them?

Thanks,

Rob
[/quote]

Yes but for four weeks I personally would not bother, but you must have some income or you could not buy a car could you?[:D]

If you do complete a return, Les Impots are really not going to believe you survive on thin air, so be prepared for questions and proof of how you are getting money and where from, you do have to declare any bank accounts in France or the UK, but weren't you the one asking about declaring gifts? If so, that is the explanation.[:D]

 

For details on tax stuff have a read through http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/670855/ShowPost.aspx

[Rob G]

Hello Ron,

Yes, you do have the right person. And no, we aren't surviving on thin

air. We're simply living off savings at the moment, and have had no

income - neither from any kind of salary, nor from gifts, nor from

investments. Just our savings, which we already had before we left the

UK. As such I'm reasonably sure we won't have any tax to pay, just not

sure whether we'll need to fill in any forms.

Rob

[Ron Avery]

Not being nosey Rob, ( well I am really[:)]) but don't your savings earn any interest then?  You do not have to declare capital brought into France from savings accounts but you do have to declare any interest earned on that capital.  So any interest added to your savings acount in November and December 2005 counts as income.  I doubt that you will pay any tax should you choose to do a return and in order to do so you need to get a double taxation indemnity in place in France.  Legally you should do a return, but if you ask your impots office  I expect they will tell you not to bother, but it may be handy to do one if you need proof of income for your health care contributions.

[Rob G]

Hi Ron,

Thanks again for your comments. Yes, there will have been a small amount of interest for the month of December.

What's a "double taxation indemnity", why do I need one, and how do I get it in place?

Thanks again,

Rob

[Suze01]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

Yes but for four weeks I personally would not bother

[/quote]

We filled one in for 10 days of residency.

[derf]

As Ron said, you certainly won't have any French Income tax to pay this year but: if you have to make a tax declaration and it is a legal obligation to declare all income from what ever source, including interest payments, then you will be liable for Contributions Sociales (CSG), even on a small amount of revenue you will have to pay a Tax of around 11.5%, they may of course not bother this year but they will collect it from now on.

[Beryl]

[quote user="Rob G"]Hi Ron,

Thanks again for your comments. Yes, there will have been a small amount of interest for the month of December.

What's a "double taxation indemnity", why do I need one, and how do I get it in place?

Thanks again,

Rob
[/quote]

This might be helpful Rob.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/app_dtt.htm#5

This is my first tax year too, is there anyone out there in receipt of a UK Civil Service pension ( as these have to be taxed in the UK) who can advise me where this information needs to go on the tax form. I'd hate to be taxed twice!

We still pay UK tax on the little interest our UK bank account earns as it seemed easier to let it be. Will this cause any problems ?

[Sunday Driver]

Rob

Before leaving for France, you should have advised the Inland Revenue who will then transfer your tax file to the Centre for Non Residents. They will send you a P85 declaration to sign confirming that you have left the UK. Once they've got this, they will provide you with the necessary dual taxation forms which you use to have any UK income paid gross.  The same forms allow you to reclaim any UK tax paid since you left the country and which is now taxable in France.  When you receive your new french tax reference, you take the forms to your french tax office to get them stamped, then send them back to the IR.

You'll also need to advise your bank so they can pay your interest gross from now on.

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="beryl"]

This is my first tax year too, is there anyone out there in receipt of a UK Civil Service pension ( as these have to be taxed in the UK) who can advise me where this information needs to go on the tax form. I'd hate to be taxed twice!

We still pay UK tax on the little interest our UK bank account earns as it seemed easier to let it be. Will this cause any problems ?

[/quote]

All foreign earnings (pensions/bank interest) have to be entered on Form 2047 first, then transferred onto the main declaration Form 2042.

Then on your Form 2042, normal "old age" retirement pension and company pensions go in Box AS and also in Box TL.

Your civil service pension goes in Box TK (it remains taxed in the UK, not in France).

Any UK bank interest you earn (however small) goes in Box TS.

(Just come back from my local tax office where a helpful chap confirmed I'd done it right  [:$]

 

 

[Rob G]

Thanks, all, for the info. I don't think I need any dual taxation forms. Our savings (and thus any interest received on them) are in France, and I don't anticipate having any UK income. (I did fill in and send off a form R85 before leaving the UK.)

I think I'm just going to have to phone the impôts people and ask them what to do for this year.

Rob

[Beryl]

Thanks very much for you help Sunday Driver [:D]

[londoneye]

when does the tax year run from then please, as we moved here start of april - do we have to fill in tax  forms this year, or next year?

newly arrived confused person!

[Sunday Driver]

The French tax year runs from January to December and tax forms come out each April.

So, you will need to fill in a tax declaration in April 2007 to declare your worldwide income from the date you arrived in France (April 2006) to 31 December 2006. Your tax bill then becomes due in September 2007 but you can pay in instalments up to that date.

[Ron Avery]

You will not have to do a return for 2006 until May 2007, the tax year runs Jan 1 to December 31.

[londoneye]

thanks to both responses.

wasnt looking forward to that as one of my first tasks here - thankfully i can rest on my laurels for a year !

[Rob G]

Just to confirm that I rang the tax office, told them we we've been here since end Nov and they said no need to fill in a declaration until next year. Something about if you spend less than a certain portion of the year in France then you're not counted as a tax resident anyway. So don't need to worry about this particular bureaucratic nightmare until next year!

Rob

[booboo]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"][quote user="beryl"]

This is my first tax year too, is there anyone out there in receipt of a UK Civil Service pension ( as these have to be taxed in the UK) who can advise me where this information needs to go on the tax form. I'd hate to be taxed twice!

We still pay UK tax on the little interest our UK bank account earns as it seemed easier to let it be. Will this cause any problems ?

[/quote]

All foreign earnings (pensions/bank interest) have to be entered on Form 2047 first, then transferred onto the main declaration Form 2042.

Then on your Form 2042, normal "old age" retirement pension and company pensions go in Box AS and also in Box TL.

Your civil service pension goes in Box TK (it remains taxed in the UK, not in France).

Any UK bank interest you earn (however small) goes in Box TS.

(Just come back from my local tax office where a helpful chap confirmed I'd done it right  [:$]

 

 

[/quote]

Good morning!

Sorry if this is stupid, but I'm a bit confused!!

If my UK savings ac is still a 'resident' ac and therefore taxed in the UK; surely if I put the interest earned in box TS, it will be taxed again? Can I not use box TI so it will not be taxed again? !!

Also looking at form 2047 that I'm supposed to fill out (along with the 3916 declaration) it says in the info notice that for interest earned in UK, that it is taxed exclusively in th eplace of residence ie. in my case France. So that applies surely to non resident UK accounts ?

Any help would be really appreciated.

 

[andyh4]

Booboo

yes you will, and should be taxed in France on your UK interest.  There are 2 things that you can do to avoid being taxed twice.

1.  Get the interest paid gross, since you are no longer UK resident (the NI form num,ber is given earlier in the thread)  Some institutions will not pay gross interest.

0r

2.  Claim back the UK tax from the Inland revenue in the UK.

[Cat]

Can I tag on to the end of this thread please?

I've just sat down to complete my tax froms here in France, I live here permanently, and rent out my UK home.  The rental from this is my only income, no savings, no pensions. 

I have already declared this income on my UK tax form.

I have in front of me the French tax form 2047, and understand I need to carry over the figures onto form 2042.  But do I also need to fill in form 2044?

Anyone out there in a similar situation and able to advise (please) [:'(]

 

[booboo]

[quote user="andyh4"]

Booboo

yes you will, and should be taxed in France on your UK interest.  There are 2 things that you can do to avoid being taxed twice.

1.  Get the interest paid gross, since you are no longer UK resident (the NI form num,ber is given earlier in the thread)  Some institutions will not pay gross interest.

0r

2.  Claim back the UK tax from the Inland revenue in the UK.

[/quote]

Thanks for the quick feedback. I just mentionned it to a french colleague of mine, and she called the impot people for me, and I thought I better share this with you quickly so others in the same situation know this:

Due to the french/UK convention for tax purposes, if you pay tax in the UK on interest earned on current/savings accounts, then you will not pay tax again in france, however they need to know about it for the calculation of your global tax rate. this is what he said to do:

You fill out the 3916 decalration per account held in the UK.

You fill out declaration 2047, page 2 in section B - 'interets'. You enter net amount of interest received (in euros) in box 'montant net encaissés en euros'; nothing to enter in 'pourcentage à appliquer' ; then in the next box 'credit d'impot ou impot etranger s'il est inferieur' you enter amount of tax paid in UK (in euros)

You then fill out box TI on declaration 2042 with amount of interest received again.

hope that helps other too!

[Ron Avery]

No Boo boo it does not help because what you have been told and passed on is just not the case and that has been confirmed by both the French and UK tax authorities.

If you live in France you pay tax in France on your income from private pensions, savings etc.  If it is taxed in the UK it should not be!!

 You have to do as stated by Andy above, and declare it on the 2047 and 2042, a  search will find other current threads that explain this process in detail, you then claim back the tax paid in the UK, there is NO choice.  If you don't claim back the tax from the UK you will pay tax on the interest twice.  There is a simple way of claiming back interest paid in the UK on savings if you do not have any other UK income, and the interest received is below your UK free pay amount,  you just complete a UK Self assessment form and you get the tax back. This is the recommended method by the Bootle tax office that deals with non-residents tax affairs

[Beryl]

Ron

I sent you a PM yesterday morning, did you receive it?

It wasn't a list of tax questions, just a thank you, didn't want you to think I don't appreciate your help [:D]

 

[Ron Avery]

Yes thanks Beryl, I have just Pm'd you back

[Sunday Driver]

My UK bank interest used to be taxed at 20% in the UK.

I've asked my bank to pay me gross from now on, and I've asked the IR to refund all my tax since leaving the UK.

It will now be taxed at 16% (plus a few bob for contributions sociale) in France. [:)]