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Contibutions Sociales


Bastet
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Benjamin,

Interest received in France subject to prélèvements libératoires  (net of taxes, known as PLF) is entered  in box EE

Interest received in France without with holding taxes (gross, known as IRPP)  is entered  in box TR

Interest received in UK is entered in box TS

I do not know if CA advise you of this but ING certainly do.

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Thank you both for your promt replies.

The problem that I have in going back to the tax office was that it is always the same person who deals with queries from the public.

Now that I know exactly which box it should have been entered in I feel much more confident in returning.

Benjamin

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[quote user="aj_dr"]Does anybody know if the rental income you declare on your Tax form should be Gross or Net.  The reason I ask is that ours is an independant property at the coast and has it's own Tax Fonciere & Tax Habitation, water and electricity bill, charges for maintenance as it's on a complex, basically a maison secondaire. Should we be deducting these charges from our rental income and therefore only have Social charges on the net income.

aj
[/quote]

I'm no expert, as my own questions prove, but is your property being rented out as a holiday place, i.e. short term and furnished?  Our rental property is on a long term lease, unfurnished, and the only cost to us is the tax fonciere and buildings insurance. The tenant pays all the other costs/taxes.  In our case, I have been advised that we cannot make any allowances for our expenses . Maybe for holiday rentals different rules apply and someone else might have the answer??

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read this thread, but still confused. I declared interest from uk bank account in box"TS" on french tax return. This was only income declared other than salary from uk ( exempt by double taxation agreement). I then recieved a demand for impots sur revenue.... 215 euro tax on 1365 interest. Ok i thought, this is about the same as the uk tax which i should get refunded in a few months.

Alas last week another demand for 150 euros( contributions social). total = 27%.

Does this sound right? or am i getting stung twice. I pay NI in uk. Any advice much appreciated. No more saving for me, spend it all!!!
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These are two different taxes. One way, although not strictly true, is to think of the first demand for 215€ as income tax and the second one as being similar to NI contributions.

It's not possible to tell you if the figure of 215€ is correct from the information given but the figure of 150€ is ( 11% of 1365€ ).

You sound to be in quite a complicated situation if you are French tax resident and still being UK slaried as well as paying UK NI?

Benjamin

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[quote user="aj_dr"]Bastet,

Ours is done on short term rentals,furnished for holidays....... at the moment I am paying CS on the costs as well as the income, somehow this doesn't seem right. Should I go to the Tax Office to find out??

aj
[/quote]

Like I said, we have rental from a long term unfurnished let.  Yours may may be treated differently to that ; but going to your local tax office will the best place to find out.

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[quote user="cooperlola"]having got completly confused over this I asked an expert.  This is what I was told "CSG is calclulated as10,5% on UNearned income; CRDS is calculated as 0,5% on all income taxable in France." [/quote]

I have received information from the English language email service of the French taxation department, stating that CRDS is definitely not payable on foreign old age or private pensions provided the person has submitted Form E121.  

In order to prevent this happening in error, they should NOT be entered into box TL of the tax return.

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[quote user="jamesg"][quote user="cooperlola"]having got completly confused over this I asked an expert.  This is what I was told "CSG is calclulated as10,5% on UNearned income; CRDS is calculated as 0,5% on all income taxable in France." [/quote]

I have received information from the English language email service of the French taxation department, stating that CRDS is definitely not payable on foreign old age or private pensions provided the person has submitted Form E121.  

In order to prevent this happening in error, they should NOT be entered into box TL of the tax return.


[/quote]Interesting.  Can you provide a link to this?
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[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="jamesg"][quote user="cooperlola"]having got completly confused over this I asked an expert.  This is what I was told "CSG is calclulated as10,5% on UNearned income; CRDS is calculated as 0,5% on all income taxable in France." [/quote]

I have received information from the English language email service of the French taxation department, stating that CRDS is definitely not payable on foreign old age or private pensions provided the person has submitted Form E121.  

In order to prevent this happening in error, they should NOT be entered into box TL of the tax return.

[/quote]Interesting.  Can you provide a link to this?[/quote]

This is in an email which I don't seem to be able to paste into here.  

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[quote user="jamesg"][quote user="cooperlola"]having got completly confused over this I asked an expert.  This is what I was told "CSG is calclulated as10,5% on UNearned income; CRDS is calculated as 0,5% on all income taxable in France." [/quote]

I have received information from the English language email service of the French taxation department, stating that CRDS is definitely not payable on foreign old age or private pensions provided the person has submitted Form E121.  

In order to prevent this happening in error, they should NOT be entered into box TL of the tax return.


[/quote]

I was talking to an "expert" who has looked into this, his view echoes James, but he did not mention the E 121 as being a qualifier for not paying CRDS.  The EU has apparently ruled that a member state cannot raise social charges on pensions originating from another member state,  like the UK as these pensions within the UK, would not be liable for NI deductions.  However, the French choose to ignore this ruling and though their English help line says that CRDS should not be applied, which is the official line from the EU,  in practice, most tax offices, certainly in the SW do apply CRDS to UK pensions declared in France whether you put it in box TL or not.

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Hi Ron,

If they were to do that, you could make a successful appeal.

The point about the E121 is that the guidance notes for box TL say that you are liable if you are 'à la charge de' the French health service.  The E121 means that the UK pays an annual figure to France for your health care, so it does not apply.

Local tax offices do not have the power to make rules to suit their own opinion of the law surely.

My email quotes a 'jurisprudence of the Europeen court of justice (15 Fevrier 2000)' as the basis.

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Hi James

The E 121 link makes sense, however the CRDS is not essentially a health charge it is a "contribution" towards the French Social security "black hole".  Someone I know has been advised to challenge the CRDS payment at the Tax Office but on the basis of an E121 for disability, not age,  same criteria, the UK pays his health care charges, so it will be interesting to know how he gets on.

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Here is the information that James posted to another forum - I'm better at cutting and pasting than he is...[;-)]

From the official documents general des impots website:

REVENUS DE SOURCE ÉTRANGÈRE SOUMIS EN FRANCE À L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU ET IMPOSABLES À LA CONTRIBUTION POUR LE REMBOURSEMENT DE LA DETTE SOCIALE (CRDS)

Les revenus d'activité et de remplacement de source étrangère sont assujettis à la CRDS dans les conditions et selon les mêmes modalités que les revenus du patrimoine, lorsque ces revenus sont imposables en France, en vertu de la convention fiscale applicable et dans la mesure où la personne physique est à la charge, à quelque titre que ce soit, d'un régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie.Il s'agit notamment des pensions de source étrangère.

E-mail response from Paris:

British old age pensions and private pension should be entered in box TL , only if you do not hold the document E121.
If you hold this document E 121 ( still running in this fiscal year) you are not in the French social security system.
In fact , with that document English retired people are in charge of the British security system you have nothing to declare in box TL
this , is following a jurisprudence of the europeen court of justice ( 15 fevrier 2000)

I hope the above informations will help you, I am staying at your service

Francine Riboulet Contrôleur des Impôts

I assume this exemption through having your CMU charges covered by the UK also applies to short term holders of the E106?
 

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  • 4 weeks later...

We've completed a french tax declaration every year since we came here to live and have never had a demand for Contributions Sociales before, but we did this year.  We've always declared all our interest on UK bank accounts as well as my husband's company pension and accompanied the form with copies of all his payslips and P60, our monthly advice of payments of interest from investments, and tax information sheets from our bank and investment company showing interest and UK tax paid on it.  We've always shown proof that tax has been paid on all of this in the UK.

Our income hasn't increased (in fact it's less than the first year we were here due to the drop in interest after the twin towers tragedy) and our Revenue Fiscal de Reference is about the same as the last couple of years.  Have I missed something?  What's changed in the tax regime this year that they've billed us for social contributions?  I have no problem with paying it if we're due it, but I don't understand why this year and not before when our circumstances are still the same.  I thought maybe it was a mistake and was going to try to reclaim it.  Any ideas?

Sheila     

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I have an E106, and on the basis that I'm not "a la charge" of the French healthcare system for the period of its validity, I e-mailed my tax office and asked them for a refund of the CRDS on my company pension.  They initially insisted that as the pension was taxable in France, then I had to pay CRDS like anyone else, but when I referred them to their own tax guidance note (2041GG) and the EU court decision, they agreed to refund me the money. 

Thank you, James!

Re Merson's post:

You don't say whether they've applied the CS charge on your whole income or just your interest. Your husband's company pension would have been exempt if you had a valid E106, but would have become chargeable when it expired.  Your bank interest has always been chargeable.

It also depends on which boxes you've been filling in on your tax declaration.  Interest goes in box TS which automatically generates the CSG/CRDS/PS charges.  Company pension goes in box TL (but only if you don't have an E-Form) which generates the CRDS charge.

Although you submitted all of your back-up documents, it's unlikely that the tax office would have examined them when processing your declaration.

 

 

 

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"We've always declared all our interest on UK bank accounts as well as my husband's company pension and accompanied the form with copies of all his payslips and P60, our monthly advice of payments of interest from investments, and tax information sheets from our bank and investment company showing interest and UK tax paid on it.  We've always shown proof that tax has been paid on all of this in the UK."

Why are you paying UK  tax on a company pension and UK interest if you live in France?  If you are,  you are in danger of getting a hefty tax bill from the French for that  income, which you will have to pay and then try and get back the tax paid in the UK which sould not have been from the day you arrived in France.

To clarify an earlier point,my friend also got back his CRDS, because he has an E 121 and was told, in line with what James and SD have said,   if you have an E 121 for any reason, you should not be paying CRDS through income tax.  An E121 does not exempt you from social charges on "unearned income" though.

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They've only applied the charge to the interest, not to the pension.   Re the other comment - all our income is generated in the UK and we have our reasons for choosing to continue paying tax in the UK.  Since there's a double taxation treaty, we don't have to pay tax on it here too.  We're just curious about why we've suddenly been billed for social charges for the first time in five years when our income was less last year than it was when we first declared.  Maybe this year they did pay attention to all the backup material I always send.  As it turns out, we'll be moving to the UK to live in the near future, so there's no point in changing now anyway.  As soon as we can sell our house, we'll be off.  

Sheila 

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