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Contibutions Sociales


Bastet
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Confusion is reigning chez nous this afternoon.

We have received a demand for Contibutions Sociales amounting to 11% of the "Base imposable"  We have a very low declarable income at the moment, namely rental from an apartment.  Based on the figures stated, I think that we have been given a joint personal tax allowance on this rental income of just over €2k.   Can anyone explain what is happening here?    We thought the allowance before paying these contributiuons (CSG, CRDS & Prél. Soc. etc) was nearer to €7000 each. 

We fully expect to have to pay social contributions but rather thought it would be when we have a higher income. Thanks.

 

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You are getting confused,  about 7000€ per household is the base for CMU (health system) contributions, that is totally different.  The base for CSG etc is much lower.  You are  paying social contributions, a bit like NI in the UK at 11% on your unearned income which is what interest on savings and rent is classed as.  
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As Ron says, you pay social contributions on your actual taxable income, not your revenue fiscal de reference (as is the CMU).  There is no threshold.

Up to 5.8% of your current CSG contribution based on unearned income (eg, bank interest) is tax deductable next year and this will be reflected in your 2007 tax declaration.

 

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Thanks Ron and SD. We assumed that the demand would be correct but couldn't work out how.  

"Up to 5.8% of your current CSG contribution based on unearned income (eg, bank interest) is tax deductable next year and this will be reflected in your 2007 tax declaration."

We have been paying this tax for 4 years on our savings accounts interest directly via Credit Mutuel who deduct and pay it.   Would we know if this has been taken into account by the tax authorities so far?  

Do you mean this 5.8% will be included somewhere in the 'pre-rempli' form we'll receive next year, or in 2008 for the year 2007 ?  

Sorry if these are dumb questions; thanks in advance for your patience.

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The quote was taken directly from the French impots website.  I assume it'll be included in next year's pre-repli tax declaration but if it isn't, you could enter it manually.  The amount you can claim is shown on the current contributions social statement that you've just received.

 

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Please can somebody help.  As UK pensioners resident in France are we liable for the payment of Contributions Sociales.  We were surprised to receive quite a large demand today. We thought the system was the same as the UK,  where you no longer make NI contributions if you are not in receipt of any earned income . rents, etc. 
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If you read the posts above you will see that there is no minimum income, so if you have received a "large" demand you must have declared a large amount of unearned income, you are not exempt just because you are a pensioner in another EU country.  Look upon it as your contribution to the well being of the people in your adopted country.[:D].
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Sorry my mistake, it should have and now does read  UNEARNED income.  That is what you pay social charges on and it is about 11% of income.  Sorry for the confusion.

 EDIT  if the demand is " dispropotionately "large" is it possible that you put any of your pensions in the wrong boxes on your tax return?

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Ron  in the back of my mind which I admit is dark and dusty something is saying that the french tax can apply CSG and CRDS to  pensions. I do hope I am not correct as it will soon apply to me  but do you know if it possible.
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Not sure about CSG but CRDS is certainly payable on a private pension ie the UK OAP pension and any company pension that is taxed in France.

I am not sure if this excludes UK Civil service type pensions not taxed in France but declared here, but I think they are exempt from CRDS but Les Lauriers or SD may know more.  The rate of CRDS is 0.5% of the total private pension.

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I know I am being particularly thick  but could someone please explain to me whatCRDS's are.   I have absolutely no problem with contributing to the economy of my host country, but thought we were doing our bit with our Tax Habitation, Tax Foncier and both French and English Income Tax: (we are currently paying in both countries as Paris has lost our FD5s   As we arrived with 121s we thought our health insurance was covered by a reciprical arrangement between the two countries   Thought we had done our homework before coming to France; but certainly overlooked this one   Are we likely to have any other nasty surprises

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You can do all the homework you like but a lot of things still come as a shock, social charges being one of them and having to pay towards health charges and 20€ to the doctor each time

If you knew about everything that you were going to be faced with you could have done a search on here but if you don't know you cannot ask can you?  Mind you a search on here and you would have found out that your E121s only cover for up to 60-70% of your health costs, you have to get a top up insurance or mutuelle for the rest and they get  dearer the older you are.

A google found that  CRDS is Contribution pour Le Remboursement de la Dette Sociale (French: Social Debt Repayment Contribution)..  Speaks for itself.  As far as the FD 5 is concerned you should chase that up at your local impots office, they would have taken a copy when you had it stamped to say that what you were declaring in France was the same amount that you were claiming back tax on in the UK.  It is not always the French in Paris that are at fault, Nottingham are not that quick either in advising the local tax offices to change your coding and hen there is your pension provider who hads to act upon it.  Might be worth ringing the tax office for non residents in Nottingham and find out where your back tax is, one good thiing is that you will get back all the tax you paid in the UK from the date you told hem you arrived in France.

Mon Dieu is that he time, I'm off to bed.........

 

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[quote user="aj_dr"]Can somebody explain......last year our rental property was NOT included on our CRDS but this year it has appeared at 11%??

aj
[/quote]

You must have put on your tax return this year then.  Rent is treated as unearned income, when you put on your tax return in the TS box you pay 11% of it in social charges. 

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We experienced the same thing - declared rental income for the 1st time last year, (for 2004 ) but only had rent from a couple of months at the end of the year. This year we had a full 12 months to declare and received the bill for the 11%.

This was the reason for my posting this query as I didn't initially understand the different between this tax and the 8% payable to CPAM.

 

N.B.  We asked a neighbour who has a few houses rented out, and he told us to fill in line BE on the tax form.  Don't think at our level of income it makes a difference though.....

 

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I too got this bill this morning for the first time - and the shock of my life. We have been declaring our gite income since 2003 and paying social charges to the"assurance maladie des professions indépendantes" and this is the first time we have been given the charge. I declared my gite income under box "NO" - "vente de marchandises ou locations meublées non professionnelles". Have I made a huge mistake on my declaration? How can this be unearned income when we work our socks off all season? If I go to the tax office are they going to try and back date this charge? Help!!
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Karen you may want to go to your tax office where there is a risk of you paying back dated social charges or you could send an E mail to the SW tax office on [email protected] and ask where your rent should be declared, as your rent income may not have been been declared correctly, I don't have it so I don't know, but you are another one who is confusing health charges with social charges, they are not the same one is your contribution to French Health service the other is towards the national social security system and unemployment benefit etc.
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Does anybody know if the rental income you declare on your Tax form should be Gross or Net.  The reason I ask is that ours is an independant property at the coast and has it's own Tax Fonciere & Tax Habitation, water and electricity bill, charges for maintenance as it's on a complex, basically a maison secondaire. Should we be deducting these charges from our rental income and therefore only have Social charges on the net income.

aj

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Since the original question has been answered, can I ask another on the same subject?

I am trying to discover if we have paid Contributions Sociales twice on the income earned from our CA savings account (compte livret).

I will quote actual figures although they are pretty meaningless now as the money we temporarily had on deposit has been spent on putting this roof over our heads. The reason for doing so is so that anyone looking at this question may wish to try to work out any relevant percentages.

In Decmber 2005 three entries appeared on our savings account statement.

INTERETS     ANNEE 2005 NETS                                                                                  609,12 (credit)

PREL CSG/RDS   CSG/INT BRUT                                                                                    76,13 (debit)

PREL CSG/RDS   RDS/INT BRUT                                                                                      3,62 (debit)

With the advice of our French tax office the amount of 609€ was added to the gross interest we had earned in England in box TS and the total amount was shown on the Avis d'Impôt for 2005.

Having now received our demand for Contributions Sociales we realise we are paying CSG/CRDS etc on the amount shown on the Avis d'Impôt.

I have revisited the tax office and they assure me that all the entries on our tax declaration were correct. I then wondered if our account with CA was being classed as non resident but having visited the bank I spoke to one of the staff who acts as  receptionist and, without being rude to them, I think their knowledge on this subject was a bit thin.

I can now either decide to go back and make an appointment with our banking advisor (this could take up to a week) or I can sit back and see if anyone out there has any ideas!

Benjamin

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Benjamin

Assuming that the 76,13€ and 3.62 € were deducted from your account, it would appear that all the answers you have been given were correct.  But the question perhaps that was not asked was " if I have a CA Livret account with social charges on the interest earned, deducted and paid, do I have to declare these again on my Tax return in Box TS? "

 I think the answer would have been NO, not sure where it should have gone but not box TS.  I suggest you go back to your tax office with the bank statement as evidence of social charges already deducted/paid

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