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Theres a hole in my bank account


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[quote user="Andyphilpott"]I know it is difficult to cancel Direct Debits in France, but it is possible with help from someone who speaks French and understands the systems.[/quote]No, unfortunately, it isn't, and it's one of the worst features of French banking in my opinion.

An ordre de prélèvement is not an order to your bank to accept transfer instructions from your supplier.  It's an authorization to your supplier to take money from your bank account.  It may seem like just a technical difference, but the effect is that your bank cannot cancel it, which means that you cannot cancel it by writing to your bank.  All you can do is tell your supplier to stop using it.  (You can, and should, use registered mail - but this isn't foolproof, as I've discovered.  I'll post separately on this topic, since it's relevant to many things other than banking.)

Now, if your supplier is honest, it doesn't matter.  But I am being taken to the cleaners by a supplier who is taking advantage of the fact that I made a mistake under the contract in response to his failure to provide the service.  He is acting quite unethically in my opinion, and my bank agrees.  But the only thing I can do, as far as the bank is concerned, is to tell them not to honour the supplier's instruction (faire opposition) - but this is only a temporary thing, renewable every 6 months, for a fee of course.

This whole thing seemed to me so absurd that I made a fool of myself by arguing with my bank, saying it couldn't be so.  In the end I said: "Do you mean that even if I have good reason to distrust the supplier - he's hired someone I know to be guilty of fraud, or he's been taken over by the Mafia - he will have the power to remove money from my account for ever, or at least until I close the account or die?"

They said yes.  So I'm getting ready to close the account. 

If anyone has been through the process of changing bank accounts in France (not necessarily for the same reason) I'd be interested to hear how it went.

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As one who has been with this forum since the very beginning, in its different formats, I can't plead guilty to having migrated from other forums, but I do know exactly what Gluestick means. There are forums that by their very nature encourage English-speakers to get by without learning foreign languages, in fact they exist as advertising media for English speaking services in France. Their whole raison d'être makes me rather uneasy.

Having said that, they might be a good place to seek out one of the hand holding agencies because the OP's experience is all too common in France - not just with EDF and banks, but with other bodies too, and it can be very handy to have a French speaker on your side. You don't necessarily need to pay for this. For example if you buy your house through and agency, rather than privately or through a notaire, a decent agent (and a few notaires) will help you with setting up banks, EDF etc accounts and this is continuing help - not to be taken advantage of by the thick or lazy, but there in genuine need. I would also treat some of the hand-holders with caution. There is one - just outside your dept (53) that is of rather dubious standing and effectiveness, and another (in 14) that is run by a convicted fraudster, though, admittedly, he should have intimate knowledge of French banking. This information is all available through the 'search' box on this forum, though I don't think there is much specific to EDF.

I don't think changing banks is necessarily a cure, as it's French banking that is at fault here rather than one particular bank or utility. Payments can still be made from 'closed' accounts, and the bank will pursue you for reimbursement or even, in extreme cases, push to get you blacklisted from all French banks. This has to be sorted out with whoever is taking the money, in this case EDF. Most of the time prélèvements work perfectly well, but there is scope for errors, as the OP has found.

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Hi Beryl,

    if your bank is (or will be) Credit Agricole then you can Email the 'English Speaking Branch' using this address it is in Rodez, which I think is the Aveyron and they are very helpful and will contact your local branch for you, it is very useful in the beginning when perhaps your language skills may leave you struggling to fully undertsand.  Good luck.

[email protected]

sorry but you will need to copy/cut & paste

best regards

Dave

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"It may seem like just a technical difference, but the effect is that your bank cannot cancel it, which means that you cannot cancel it by writing to your bank."

A couple of years ago (I can't remember whether it would have been with CA or La Poste) we had a prelevement with Neuf Telecom. Running into problems with Neuf taking money incorrectly, we told the bank to cancel the prelevement. The bank cancelled it, and Neuf could no longer take funds from our account.

There was a charge of about E12, but it's certainly possible to cancel them.

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Dave - will that service work for other regions as well? I ask because CA is stlll very much a regional bank and although, for example, you can use their cash machines everywhere you can normally only pay money in within your own region.

It may be that they will help anybody of course, that's unlikely but not without precedent. An English-speaking health service helpline was set up by our local CPAM in 50, and it was in such demand that the CPAM, on its own initiative and at its own expense, extended the service to English speakers in all of France.

Edit - just seen the post above. It is possible to cancel a prélèvement but in the case of utilities it can be very difficult. I understand it cannot be done if the payee says there is still money to be collected - i.e. the account is still active. Although you can cancel a payment to an internet company, for example, if you have paid all moneys owing to the end of the service, EDF is a rather different animal because if you want electricity there is not normally any alternative to EDF.

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I had Carrefour 'take' money from our account recently. When I went in and said that they had 'piquer' my money. The woman got uppity, but I said that they had, they had taken money without any authorisation from me and I consider that theft. She promised me that she would sort it out and she did remarkably quickly thank goodness.

I have found that this sort of thing happens too frequently really and can sometimes get very messy indeed.

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Hi Will,

    it worked for us, we are in the Lot and the 'English speaking branch' (their own words, not mine) is in Rodez which I believe is in the Aveyron so in that case yes, cross border communication worked, they helped us out with a problem that we had at the time with Tiscali.

good luck & best regards

Dave

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No it was to do with a loan we had with them rather than our Carrefour Carte Pass which usually works very well. They do incredible loans from time to time, very very low interests rates on a fairly short term basis, but sometimes well worth having. I had paid one of these off and they had continued debiting us for the amounts.
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[quote user="Juswundrin"]Running into problems with Neuf taking money incorrectly, we told the bank to cancel the prelevement. The bank cancelled it, and Neuf could no longer take funds from our account.

There was a charge of about E12, but it's certainly possible to cancel them.[/quote]It seems very likely to me that what you actually did was faire opposition, which - as I tried to explain - blocks the use of the prélèvement temporarily but does not cancel it.

Most suppliers are honest and the problem eventually goes away, which is probably why this business is not widely known (except to bankers).   In your case it sounds as though the supplier acknowledged his error, so it may not be important to you.

Nevertheless, if you can be bothered to check, have a look at your bank statement showing the €12 charge.  If it's described as frais opposition, then that's what you did - and I think if you enquired you would find that the direct debit order is still in force, even if it isn't being used.

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As accounts was my thing, it is just very very bad book keeping practice if such a thing happens, and as far as I am concerned is a sort of theft. They benefit from 'our' money, via their incompetence and then it is not in their interest to do anything about it unless told, well with too many companies, until told, sort of a free loan.

I look at it like this, if someone came and took my car and drove it, without my permission, I would certainly count that as theft, imagine that I would have to argue and prove it was my car to get it back.

In the olde days there was never any excuse for bad bookkeeping, these days the puters should automatically be flagging and reimbursing errors immediately.

 

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[quote user="allanb"][quote user="Andyphilpott"]I know it is difficult to cancel Direct Debits in France, but it is possible with help from someone who speaks French and understands the systems.[/quote]No, unfortunately, it isn't, and it's one of the worst features of French banking in my opinion.

[/quote]

Yes it is possible to cancel a Frech direct debit.

The matter is governed by

Code Civil - Art. 1984 à 2010 - Mandat. In particular Art. 2003 - (Loi du 1 er juillet 1988)

Le mandat finit par la révocation ou la

renonciation du mandataire
, par la tutelle des majeurs, la faillite et

toute procédure analogue ainsi que par le décès du mandant ou du

mandataire, à moins qu'il n'ait été convenu du contraire ou que le

contraire ne résulte de l'affaire.

A simple registered letter to the bank setting out the details of the prélèvement followed by:

Je vous remercie de bien vouloir noter que je souhaite annuler ce prélèvement à partir de (DATE).

Je vous prie d’agréer, Madame, Monsieur, mes salutations distinguées.

Should do the trick.

Good luck.

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[quote user="Cjlaws"]Yes it is possible to cancel a Frech direct debit.

The matter is governed by

Code Civil - Art. 1984 à 2010 - Mandat. In particular Art. 2003 - (Loi du 1 er juillet 1988)

Le mandat finit par la révocation ou la

renonciation du mandataire
, par la tutelle des majeurs, la faillite et

toute procédure analogue ainsi que par le décès du mandant ou du

mandataire, à moins qu'il n'ait été convenu du contraire ou que le

contraire ne résulte de l'affaire.
[/quote]I had already read that part of the Code (not that I'm an expert, but I had done a lot of googling) and I quoted it to my bank in one of my arguments with them.  Their reply was "Ah yes, but the mandat is not given to the bank, it is given to the supplier.  If the supplier continues to use it even when you have told him to stop, there is nothing we can do."

This is a situation in which I would like to be proved wrong.  But if I am, it means that two people in my bank have simply lied to me.  If that's the case, then I'm probably right to change banks anyway.

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I've done some more research (not just for fun: I still have to settle this matter with my supplier).  For anyone who still thinks I am making this up, there is a statement about payment methods on a French government website at:

 < www.finances.gouv.fr/directions_services/sircom/etudiants/ >

It's designed for students, but that doesn't make it any less valid.  On the subject of repeated payments, it makes it clear that there is a distinction between (1) a prélèvement automatique (in which the authorisation is given to the supplier) and (2) a virement automatique (in which an instruction is given to the bank).  It also says that it is not legal for a supplier to insist on a prélèvement as the only kind of payment he will accept.

Here is what it says about the first: Vous donnez l'autorisation à des tiers (vos créanciers) de prélever sur votre compte une somme correspondant au montant de votre facture.

And here is what it says about the second: Vous donnez l'autorisation à votre banque de transférer des sommes de votre compte bancaire vers un autre compte...

I would say that a prélèvement automatique is roughly equivalent to a direct debit in the UK, and a virement automatique to a standing order.  But in the UK you can cancel either of these by writing to your bank.  Not here!

At least I have the consolation of knowing that my bank wasn't lying to me.

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[quote user="allanb"] It also says that it is not legal for a supplier to insist on a prélèvement as the only kind of payment he will accept.[/quote]Very interesting research Allanb.

Regarding the particular insistence of suppliers to be paid by prélèvement automatique, although they do have to accept other forms of payment, they also have the right to charge you for it!!

I tried to pay my ADSL+Phone by cheque, but gave up when reading I would be charged for any other type of payment than prélèvement... They get you one way or another...

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