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183 day rule


yellowbelly
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[quote user="yellowbelly"]

Many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply. I am not looking to avoid paying my way, just that for the time being I would prefer to remain in the UK health system. I too am not sure that passport scanning has anything to do with residency claims, from what I can see it has more to do with tracking and identifying criminals and potential terrorists.

Derek

[/quote]

Sorry YB, but is anyone really fooled by the cobblers the UK Govt spouts about tracking databases etc being for terrorists only???  Do you honestly think that if the have the necessary information [to prove something like when you went in/out of a country] that they are not going to use it against 'ordinary' citizens?

As for the original question, as others have pointed out, the 183-day rule is a myth (in so far as what most people think it means) and is only a minor factor in deciding your residency status for tax purposes.  I can understand you wishing to remain in the UK healthcare system, but if you do intend to spend long periods of time in France without becoming a tax resident in France (or even if you do!), make sure you do your research to ensure you have appropriate health cover should the worst happen, leaving you needing emergency treatment in France.

Matt

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Something which is invariably forgotten is the power of Revenue authorities in most states, these days.

They can  - and do! - invoke a blanket rule which reuire YOU, not them, to "Prove" whatever.

If a revenue authority suspects a person is trying to escape from their net, then they can and do issue a demand: and thereafter, it is up to you to prove them wrong!

Expensive and unless one has deep enough pockets to employ very specialised tax lawayers and accountants this can be costly.

Remember that the central premise on which tax and revenue bodies work today, os to make those who disagree with their determinations take the initiative and process, by appeal, the matter through the courts.

With high profile tax cases in the UK, for example, these invariably end up in the House of Lords.

The Revenue don't mind: it's not their money!

Normally, however, such cases are "Flagship" items, where the Revenue seeks to upset a mechanism currently in use for tax avoidance and usually fought by major global corporations. The results thereafter become precedent tax law.

Another thing most do not know, in a business sense, is that the professional costs of defending oneself againt any investigation, unfair, incorrect assessment, are in themselves not a tax qualified expenditure for a business: these costs must be defrayed from Taxed Income!

Which is why more and more businesses now carry insurance against investigation and defence costs.

In order to have no problems, one should seek to make certain decisions on residence and domicile (where appropriate) and plan one's tax affairs around this decision.

One can usually "Visit" EU member states for up to 90 days, with no tax implications.

However, without the body of proof essential to defend one's position to whichever Revenue authority might attack, it becomes hard!

 

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

Another thing most do not know, in a business sense, is that the professional costs of defending oneself againt any investigation, unfair, incorrect assessment, are in themselves not a tax qualified expenditure for a business: these costs must be defrayed from Taxed Income!

[/quote]

I know of one business that spent over £2m - proving they were completely innocent of all charges - non deductible of course...

Kathie

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Thank you very much for the information, it is all very confusing. There are no earnings in France, we just have a bank account with a checking and savings account to cover renovations.  We do not want to dodge taxes and once we move here permanently we would certainly get into the system. However, until then for a one of, to avoid having to hire a French accountant and go through all of the red tape, if it does effect us we may have to make different future plans.

Unfortunately, I am having to project manage (that is when I can get artisans to even show up [:(]) and it appears it will take much much longer than anticipated. It is necessary for me to be here during the works and would make life easier if we knew that the 183 day rule would not apply in our situation. Thank you again for any advise.

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[quote user="WJT"]

Thank you very much for the information, it is all very confusing. There are no earnings in France, we just have a bank account with a checking and savings account to cover renovations.  We do not want to dodge taxes and once we move here permanently we would certainly get into the system. However, until then for a one of, to avoid having to hire a French accountant and go through all of the red tape, if it does effect us we may have to make different future plans.

Unfortunately, I am having to project manage (that is when I can get artisans to even show up [:(]) and it appears it will take much much longer than anticipated. It is necessary for me to be here during the works and would make life easier if we knew that the 183 day rule would not apply in our situation. Thank you again for any advise.

[/quote]

As I said early on in  this thread the 183 day is a real red herring and certainly does not apply to you. By no stretch of the imagination are you domiciled or tax resident in France. You are a 2nd home owner, resident in the UK and can spend as much time as you like in France, chasing Artisans.

When your situation cahnges, then your staus may change.

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I can quite believe it, Hastobe.

These days, in a matter of the allegation of serious evasion - particularly where we knew it was not right - we would immediately pass the case over to one of the major "Big Ten" firms we can work with, who defend on a No Win No Fee basis: once they are confident that taxpayer is not telling porkies!

Thereafter, they seek to recover costs from the Revenue: and usually succeed.

However, with major cases then the client is rather on their own!

As all professionals, these days, I have to attend mandatory CPD (Continuing Professional Development) seminars and earn sufficient Brownie Points to have my Practise Certificate renewed each year.

A few years back, one of our lecturers was the guy (ex senior Customs VAT officer, like so many on the basis Gamekeeper turned Poacher!) who was involved in defence on the famous McVitie case on whether Jaffa Cakes were in fact a cake or a biscuit!

If a biscuit it was deemed to be essential foodstuff: if a cake, it would be a luxury item and attract VAT.

Since Customs were seeking VAT back for many years, the case was millions to the Treasury.

Customs lost and McVitie won. The fees on both sides, however, were awesome!

I still have the lecturer's card since one day it may well come in handy! [6]

However the case was typical: Customs served a notice of assessment: i.e.pay up or prove we are wrong!

 

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Very scary stuff hastobe and Gluestick [blink]. Thank you for the advice and the link TU and Beryl. From the looks of it and on Nicks advice it doesn't appear to be a problem. But perhaps I should enquire at our local tax office about our specific situation, not looking forward to it though [:'(].
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Be careful. You can get information about UK tax residency from the UK tax office, but they cannot answer questions on French residency, and vice versa. And you must consider NI and secu too, which have different rules. If you have any specific questions please PM me because I can speak from personal experience.
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