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House prices, one for ALBF!!!!


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He is always going on about a property will only be worth a set figure which is a price per m2 for the area multiplied by the superficie.


Well I have found a great tool for him to play with and have hours of fun, I just have, it will also be of great interest to others looking to move to a new region or to try and get an idea of what prices their area will stand, its the closest you will get to the UK land registry sales prices.


You will find it surprisingly in your impôts espace particulier Under "données publiques, rechercher des transactions immobiliers" it threw up some really surprising results here in troudeculdemondeville and gave me hope for getting the true value of my property/business, people had scoffed that there was a ceiling but I see it has already been well broken by other immeubles de rapport, it also showed up some shocking overvaluations of appartments and undervaluations of houses.


Some examples from my area:

Appartements T1 à T3, 28 - 48m2 - sold from €60k to €110k - price per m2 from €1200 to €3300

Maisons T3 à T5, 70 - 130m2 - sold from €65k to €145k - price per m2 from €700 to €1500 [:-))]

Immeubles de rapport, around 200-250m2, sold from €180k to €600k - price per m2 from €1500 to €3000


No doubt ALBF will soon give us figures for Paris, Tours and the Dordogne [:P]

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Does it bear ot what you thought about the values in your area? It gave me a few surprises, you can drill right down to the detail of what road the property is in, what floor its on, how many rooms, garage, cellar, parking etc.


You can search for a 3 year period, if it says too many results either reduce the time frame or the radius of the search.


You can  even zoom in on the map to see the exact location of the properties.

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For me there are several factors that determine how much I would pay for a particular property.

1) Location - both general and particular.

2) Condition of the property

3) Size of the property

4) How much a particular property was the "right one" for me

5) How easy it would be to sell if circumstances changed and I needed to move

Taken all in all this means for me that it is nonsensical to quote a standard cost per sq meter for a certain location. Just too many factors involved
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Well there is 'Loi Carrez' that says that a house can only be priced according to its 'habitable surface' and of course your taxes and insurance is based on your habitable surface/living space. Also, its rental value. So to suggest that M2 is not relevant is a bit silly.

Whatever website you look at or estate agency most houses are overpriced in France, largely because it is the owner of the property that is setting the price not the market. Quite often at hundreds of thousands of euros above its value. As a buyer you really need to work out how much that house is worth.

Usually in terms of M2 there is 'bas', 'moyen' and 'haute' price to work with that are available from a number of websites. You use that information and then go from there. Swimming pools, excessive land and outbuildings don't really bring much to the table.

If you manage to sell above its market value then that is fine, but the purchaser will carry the debt. That is for sure.

I looked the other day at a property in the rural village where we have inherited a property. One was on Green Acres (sold by a British estate agency) for 30,000 euros more than the owner selling direct on the Le Bon Coin. The reality is that the owner was selling already at a good 30,000-50,000 euros more than what it is worth. Buyer beware.

Then there was another that was being sold for 320,000 Euros only on green acres. The house is only worth only 160,000 max max max. Expat buyer be very aware.

Then you have renovations that are sold by certain members on other forums that are worth zilch because you can't renovate them into a house without exceeding it's market value. If it is for your own pleasure then that is fine but you are not buying a cheap property. You will lose money.

I dare say that most British expats (if not all) who bought a house this year in France paid over the price for it.

Chancer, are you not selling your property as a business ?
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The rental property I'm purchasing had an official valuation from a notaire at 25000€ more than I'm paying for it..(it was a bankruptcy).

We were encouraged to look at a house that was on the market for 9000€, except it needed a new roof, so it's really 39000€. Still bargains to be had though!
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Thanks for that Chancer.

I had noticed it before but was a little alarmed by the list of reasons you are supposed to have to use it.

I don't want to end up paying ISF[6]

As I have said before it is no insult to offer around 60/65% of the asking price.

The little flat 60 sq m  I bought in 2014 was on the market at 45,000, the agent said they were keen to sell and might accept 35,000 so I said I wanted it all to come in at under 30,000 frais de Notaire included so I got it for 28,000 all in.

So in the end it was a little under 500€ per sq m and in addition I have 20 sq m of storage space in the attic and a 'box' in the garden.

In my area of Béziers the house next door to mine just sold at 37,000 for 140 sq m

so again around 500€ per sq m

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Rabbie, whilst I respect you would only pay what you wold pay for a property according to its value to you you are somewhat missing the point, its a government register of what price properties have sold for across the whole of France that can be fine tuned to within 300m of a location up to 50km IIRC.


Apart from daft foreigners who have not done their research and think compared to what they are used to that they are getting a bargain economics will dictate a market price for a given property in a given location, all the factors that you mention will provide a spread from the highest to the lowest sale price.


Until I found this site there was no way to do research from afar as the asking prices often bear no resemblance to actual selling prices, even after living here 11 years and keeping a close eye on the property market I was not privy to what actual sales prices were and I learned a lot, the spread was much much more than the asking prices would make you think, flats sell at a big premium over larger houses.


ALBF, buying un immeuble de rapport is a business investment just as buying a ski apartment or apartment in a city to rent out. my property will be sold for its true value (as an investment) either as a maison individuelle or immeuble de rapport according to the taxation situation at that time, it will be marketted as an investment, I dont have a business to sell.

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Thanks for sharing the price per m2 Norman, it bears out my feeling that my area is massively over-valued.


As an aside 98% of the properties were built within a very short period between the world wars (there was nothing left after WW1) and the dates of most of the sold properties are 1920 or 1925, then there were several Robien new builds done about 8 years ago, they are the ones selling now for the higher valuations of €3K per m2 but there is a big story behind them, all the original purchasers were scammed by the developer and the sales agents, they did their slick marketting  100's of kms away in rich areas to gullible people who did not do their homework, they paid twice as mch for these apartments as they are sliing for today, the few that do manage to sell that is for the blocks stand empty full of à vendre signs, double whammy is that most of the owners lost their fiscal breaks and had to repay huge sums because they did not manage to rent them within the 2 year period, no surprise given the Côte D'Azur loyers they were asking that were "guaranteed" (not!) by the salespeople.

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Well, the "official" price is for a barebones property though many buyers do try to take advantage of these government figures to try to force asking prices down.

In fact, I suspect that one could not build for the official figures so there is a disconnect here.

And the official figures are way out of date, just another way that successive governments have tried to give the impression that property is cheap and available for all.

The locals here and people in the Vendee tell me that the banks are keeping the market tight because returns for them are low and, I suspect, because they now have to hold so much in reserve in case of another crash. No one with a CDD can get a mortgage and most jobs are CDD round here at present.
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Like I said property across France is hugely over priced because of the level of salaries in France, cost of living (particularly renovation) and employment contracts that Wooly touched on. That is what expats don't get.

Norman said earlier that it is not unrealistic to offer 60 % of the asking price, well I am sorry that is wrong. You offer what it is worth. Simples. If that is 10 % of the asking price then so be it. Don't be screwed by someone trying their luck.

On Greenacres (especially the rural properties) are stupidly overpriced for a French market. For an expat market maybe they are priced correctly. But why would you buy at expat prices. You are chucking money down the drain.

Likewise with buying renovations for 20,000 euros or whatever. These places have negative value. They are not worth anything in a 'French' market.

It's tough out there.
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[quote user="woolybanana"]Well, the "official" price is for a barebones property though many buyers do try to take advantage of these government figures to try to force asking prices down. In fact, I suspect that one could not build for the official figures so there is a disconnect here. And the official figures are way out of date, just another way that successive governments have tried to give the impression that property is cheap and available for all. [/quote]


Wolly, look at the site and the figures before you talk about the "official price".


Although I do agree with you regarding the throw away (it must be true because I have only just made it up) so called "official prices" the impôts site gives real world sales figures for all properties sold right up to the last month together with verified m2 information (required by the loi carrez) and lots of other info.


You cannot get better or more accurate than that unless you want to believe your immo, Greenacres, bloke down the pub................


To my mind it is a very valuable resource and a great aid to negotiation (justifying your offer) according to the condition/desirability of the property you can say "yes its one of the best but the best have never ever sold for more than X in that area" or it needs loads of work doing, its one of the worst and least desirable therefore my offer of Y equates to the lower quartile of sales prices per m2.


More imortantly you will be negotiating in a language that the seller and/or agent will identify with and believe.

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You can also go back to the start of 2008, its a bit of a pain that if there are more than 42 results you have to narrow the search to a few months at a time in order to see them.


Looking at my local town the prices have not risen since 2008, looking in more detail they have overall Fallen, the cheapest are now a lot cheaper and there are one or two high end places that have pushed the upper ceiling up but most are selling for less per m2 than 8 years ago.


Also how few houses per year are sold, around a hundred per year which would not justify one estate agent in the UK let alone the dozens in the town!!! No wonder the commissions are so high!


I paid €150 per m2 and expect to sell for €3000 +

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Chancer: haven't you realised that very few people here actually read links, let alone try to understand them before posting? [6]

As you have made clear several times the prices shown there are the real prices paid for all the sales in a particular location, not some notional figure.

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I don't want to just pick on the Dordogne, but I will.

In the loverly place of Domme (little town discussed in another thread) the first house on greed acres is a whopping 200,000 euros overpriced.

The 60 sq metre one below it, 100,000 euros over priced.

I rest my case.

My house (on the edge of Tours) being very conservative is valued at 500,000 according to that website. I will get 430,000 for it with the wind behind me. So even these valuation websites overestimate.

Vivre la France.
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I had forgotten that we have someone who knows better than the tax office and the notaires.

Forget the fact that all the details on the site Chancer told us about are the actual prices paid, not a valuation, not an estimate, not an asking price.

ALBF knows best.[:-))]


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@ Norman.

Well you will have to blame my 'frog in doors' because she feeds me with all this shît. But then again her mum was a property layer and father a senior director of a very well known bank....and she, well she is very gifted in finance.

As for notaires, we got shown around a house once by a notaire. 350,000 euros it was valued and it was a renovation. After we left the house I said that it was only worth the land + the demolition. Lets say 100k tops. She said 'why', and I said because that part of the house is just (literally) about to fall down. I suggested also that access to the property should be blocked before someone is killed. Funnily enough, the house was taken down from sale.

A Notaire valued the last house we sold for 50,000 euros less than we sold it for.

Notaires !!!!! Some are good some not so much.

ALBF knows everything.
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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]I don't want to just pick on the Dordogne, but I will. [/quote]

Well then, DON'T, please!

After your one and only visit for a single day to the Dordogne, please do not presume that you know all about all of the Dordogne.

Clearly, you do not have a clue as to what a diverse and varied area the Dordogne is!  Why do you persist in your ridiculous assumptions that you know all that there is to know?

OK, last post on this thread as, not being typically British, I have no interest whatsoever in house prices in France or in the UK and I have promised myself that I will no longer be piqued by what anyone else says on this subject.

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Mint said...

"not being typically British, I have no interest whatsoever in house prices in France or in the UK "

Do you not think people in France are worried about house prices, the cost and standard of living ? Wake up my dear. Of course they are.

Furthermore, if the British were not worried about house prices, why would they chase a dream in France ? Is it the food ???? No, it is house prices.

Minty, I am not picking on the Dordogne. I am proving a point to those young families reading this who wish to move to France from the UK who are (lets face it) getting ripped off in that part of the world. Yes you can move to France, but don't start you new life 100,000 euros poorer than you should do. The Dordogne is a magnet for that.

As far as retired expat folk are concerned, you are bigger and and ugly enough to make your own decisions.
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[quote user="alittlebitfrench"] This is the best website for checking prices: http://www.meilleursagents.com/prix-immobilier/sarlat-la-caneda-24200/



You are right Norman, he doesn't get it, never mind, you can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.


A shame, the info is right there on his impôts home page and I know he would really make hay with the TRUE SALES RESULTS there not what people with vested interests or an agenda want people to believe that property prices are/should be, - now who does that remind me of [:D]


I dont think people in general in France are concerned about house prices, around here once they have bought their first house (if they ever do) they rarely move until they die, I'll check the mumbers again but it takes a lot of page loading but it was around 100 houses sold last year in the town catchment area with a population of close to 30,000, my business in the UK with residential customers I would count on losing 9% a year just from people moving (average every 11 years), on that basis the people in my region of France are 27 times less likely to move, granted there are renters amongst them but they tend to never move, they usually spend all their money on drink, food, holidays and tat and will be in arrears so do not have a clean dossier to ever move and wont have saved up for the deposit to buy.

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Chancer' You are right Norman, he doesn't get it'

possibly.....but then I am dealing old folk who have lived in the UK to long.

Chancer said 'I dont think people in general in France are concerned about house prices'

Do you really think that ?

What happened two years ago in terms of house prices is completely irrelevant. Historical data is not important. What is happening today that counts. Really !!

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