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Contibutions sociales Form received for first time in 6 years???


Washy
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Have just received the brown CS form with a charge on it?  I have never received this before. What is this please?  Is this imposed because for the first time I declared income from our little gite?  The form does not show exactly how the total was arrived at. I hold an E121.

Thanks

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It is the bill for your social contributions.  They are levied on your French income, so if you've just started declaring it, then that's how it's arisen. Any UK earned income remains exempt from social charges as you hold an E121.

The form shows the breakdown (and percentages) of the charge allocated between CSG, CRDS and PS.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

It is the bill for your social contributions.  They are levied on your French income, so if you've just started declaring it, then that's how it's arisen. Any UK earned income remains exempt from social charges as you hold an E121.

 

[/quote]

I'm a bit puzzled here! I'm assuming the OP is resident, since a tax return has been made. If so, surely one's worldwide income is taxed, and it's that figure on which the Contribtions Sociales are calculated?

We have certainly been charged on our UK income, and come to that on my wife's UK state pension, so there's a foul -up there to start with! We don't have any income in France - It all comes from the UK.

Peter

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Peter

You are correct when you say that social charges are due on worldwide income.  However, foreign earnings and pensions are exempt if you are not 'a la charge' of an obligatory health insurance scheme - for example, if you have an E-form, then your health insurance costs are met by the UK. 

If your wife is in receipt of her old age pension, then you should be registered for heathcare under her E121 and on that basis, you will be exempt from social charges on your foreign earnings. 

Savings/investment interest does not benefit from this exemption and remains liable to the social charge.

 

 

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REVISE AFTER SD CORRECTION

1) There is a "social" charge (CRDS) calculated on your total income "earned" and un-earned, (it is about  0.5%) but as SD says you are exempt from this charge whilst you have an E form.

2 There are also social charges which are levied and billed separately to your income tax, these are CSG, CRDS and PSCS contributions which are  based on your declared unearned income, they total around 11% of the total unearned income .  In France unearned income embraces savings interest, rent income etc.

3) There are payments that are made to the French health care system which are about 8% of your revenue declared.  These are  normally paid quarterly to URSSAF.

 

Also see http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/924927/ShowPost.aspx where I got it right!!

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Just to clarify this point...

You do not pay any social charges with your income tax - your tax avis does not include them.  They are all billed separately - that's what the brown Avis d'imposition Contributions Sociales is for - and they are payable later in the year than your income tax.

This is how your total income is split for the calculation:

Foreign earnings and pensions attract CRDS at 0,5% - except for holders of E-forms or those who will be subscribing to private healthcare insurance under the new ruling.

All unearned income attracts CSG at 8,2%, CRDS at 0,5% and PS at 2,3% = 11%.

The brown avis also shows the amount of CSG which is deductable from your next years tax declaration.

 

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This is something which always causes problems - even more so on certain other forums than here.

I think the difficulty is that the French authorities have tried to disguise a particularly iniquitous levy, which is effectively an additional universal income tax, as a 'social contribution'. Yes, the basic reason for having it is to counter the overspending on social services, particularly health, so there is a connection. But the basic point is that this is a levy on income and profits imposed on all French residents, whether or not they have any present or future rights to receive benefits.

The only reason those who receive retirement pensions from outside France are able to escape it is because the EU ruled that France could not impose this levy on such income. So perhaps there is a glimmer of encouragement in that precedent for those campaigning to remain within the CMU system.

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aj

The exemption from CRDS on UK earnings/pension would have applied from the date your CPAM reaffilliated you under your E121 until 31 December 2006.  For the purpose of the calculation, the CRDS charge is derived from the figure you enter in box TL on your income tax declaration, so you should have only entered your pre E121 earnings there.

If you didn't omit the exempted income, then you would have to contact your tax office and ask them to recalculate the figures for 2006.  That said, at 0,5%, the overpayment won't amount to much....

 

 

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Thanks SD.

 I will have a look at our Tax Forms, this didn't apply for the previous 2 years as we had been paying into the French Health system. As you say it won't amount to much although I did have some other pensions cut in when I was 60 but I will be prepared for next year!!

aj

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We also received our Contributions Sociales for the first time and following the reading of this thread, made a visit to the 'Tres' today. We are both in receipt of a pension. one occupational and one state pension. They are our only income and we have an E121.

We were told (by a very nice lady) that the details were correct and we will have to pay.

The figure is based on the 0.05%.

On the basis of this someone is wrong somewhere................................

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The 'Tres' is only the collection agency for the debt - they have no idea of or interest in the actual background to the debt - which lies with the centre des impots. You need to take it up with your tax office.

Unless you are getting a good bit of bunce, the 0,5% charge is likely to be quite small so rather than get into protracted arguments, you may want to consider writing it off for this year.

For next year, omit your foreign pension income from box TL so there's no CRDS generated......

 

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On the basis of this someone is wrong somewhere................................


Yes the French tax office.  You are exempt from CRDS on earned income like pensions etc if you have an E 121.  If you have savings interest, then you pay CRDS and CSG etc on that.

 SD will confirm this ( well he would have done if I had not looked up the box number and typed slower[:D]) and the statute under which they cannot take CRDS if you have an E form. The error may yours in that you included the total pensions in box TL on your tax return, if you put the total in there, you pay CRDS on it.

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

On the basis of this someone is wrong somewhere................................


The error may yours in that you included the total pensions in box TL on your tax return, if you put the total in there, you pay CRDS on it.

[/quote]

Sorry Ron, but we were issued with, and filled in form 2042SK (Declaration Preremplie Simplifiee) and there is no box TL on that form. It was our fourth annual return but 2006 was the first full year of my occupational pension.

Interestingly, they have also calculated the amount we owe based on the gross of our combined pensions.

I'll have to go down the tax office I guess, as SD advised.

[:)]

edit: it seems an awfully long time since I've been out on the bike SD.....[:)]

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Strange.

Inputting your pensions into box AS and box BS doesn't generate the social charge because it's normally deducted as source on pensions (French ones, that is - this is a French tax declaration after all).  That's why foreign johnnies without E121s have to additionally input their total pensions income in box TL - that's the one which generates the CRDS charge.

It'll be interesting to hear what the tax office have to say about it.

 

 

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A small point, but every little helps...

It looks as though social charges (the famous 11%) are paid only on taxable investment income, and not on tax-free interest.  If true, this would make the various tax-free savings accounts (Livret A, etc) just a bit more attractive.

Can anyone confirm that this is correct?

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[quote user="Ron Avery"]

................and filled in form 2042SK (Declaration Preremplie Simplifiee) and there is no box TL on that form.

Well there is on my one in section 8 AUTRES IMPUTATIONS , back page..

[/quote]

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/2042SK.jpg[/IMG]

I'm not sure exactly what you're implying, [:D] but just to show you what I said.

Sorry about the poor copy.

.

Gary.....................

edit: I've just had a look through my old files and found the box you refer to and it's on form 2042 K DPR, not 2042 SK, the one we were sent and submitted.

[:)]

..

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Form 2042 SK.............and that may be where the problem lies, like me ifor 2004, you got the simplified one used for for salaried people and French people with pensions.  On that one there is no provision for making claims or other types of income and as CRDS is applicable to the totals no TL box.  As I had savings interest I queried it with Mme riboulet and  I was told that "2042 S is a simplified form for person with salaries and pensions only" and was told to download the other 2042 form.

Whilst we are on the subject, I found SD's old post about the E 121 and the CRDS

.Here is the information that James posted to another forum - I'm better at cutting and pasting than he is...
 
From the official documents general des impots website:
 
REVENUS DE SOURCE ÉTRANGÈRE SOUMIS EN FRANCE À L'IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU ET IMPOSABLES À LA CONTRIBUTION POUR LE REMBOURSEMENT DE LA DETTE SOCIALE (CRDS)
 
Les revenus d'activité et de remplacement de source étrangère sont assujettis à la CRDS dans les conditions et selon les mêmes modalités que les revenus du patrimoine, lorsque ces revenus sont imposables en France, en vertu de la convention fiscale applicable et dans la mesure où la personne physique est à la charge, à quelque titre que ce soit, d'un régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie.Il s'agit notamment des pensions de source étrangère.
 
 
E-mail response from SW tax offices ( edited Mme Riboulet is not in Paris):
 
British old age pensions and private pension should be entered in box TL , only if you do not hold the document E121.
If you hold this document E 121 ( still running in this fiscal year) you are not in the French social security system.
In fact , with that document English retired people are in charge of the British security system you have nothing to declare in box TL
this , is following a jurisprudence of the europeen court of justice ( 15 fevrier 2000)

I hope the above informations will help you, I am staying at your service
 
Francine Riboulet Contrôleur des Impôts 
 

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Error in Method of Calculation of Contributions Sociales

Our Avis d'Imposition for the above contained an error in the CRDS column, in that it showed our bank interest then our total income (which already included our bank interest) - with the 0.5% charge being levied on the aggregate figure; in effect including our bank interest figure twice.

Although it took only about 5 minutes to resolve the matter with a nice lady from the Hotel d'Impots (and only 22 euros was involved - with like amounts for other `immigrant` friends), one wonders just how many others - at least in Hautes Pyrenees - have received similarily incorrect assessments.  So beware and check the figures!

gpnoel

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