Splendid Isolation...or not?

[Patf]

Eurotrash -so you're saying, because of the clear distinctions of qualification etc, everyone knows their place in France, and doesn't need to strive above it? No change to the Rise of the Meritocracy as in the UK?

A bit like that 2 Ronnies sketch - I know my place.

[idun]

But Patf, that starts in school in France. I have heard in those school class meetings that the parents jobs are discussed as an indication of expectation, and unless the child is exceptional and in that top 10%, the profs even for those with average or slightly above average results are not encouraging.

And for a bright kid who doesn't fit, then they do not hesitate to mention the SEGPA, at all.

I am very lucky for various reasons my entourage in France is eclectic, but in general, my friends tend to mix with their peers and not shall we say, a different intellectual group. I, being une anglaise, and I suppose initially intriguing, was fortunate enough for make friends with a wide variety of people. And some were afraid to talk to me at first, and if I thought there was something about them that pleased me, would talk to them and most I remain on very good terms with and others are the closest of friends. That is how I found things, may be different elsewhere, but that is most certainly how it was for me. And I did make a very big effort, even with french that was truly truly awful at first and some may say, not much better now[Www]

It is hard to get on in France. My son moved to Spain, and went from cook to sous chef and chef in rather an important restaurant very quickly. He had the experience because he had certainly been cook and sous chef in France, but moving up the ladder is harder in France. And there are all sorts of very very odd employment laws in France that are never discussed on here as a general rule, because I suppose that many retired to France or run their own businesses and do not know about them and I am sure that they influence bosses in deciding who does what.

And here is something that I do not think I have mentioned about the Education Nationale...... my hairdressers son did not pass his last exam to be a sports teacher......... but they were so short of sports teachers in the Parisien region that they passed him anyway later that year, IF he would go to Paris.  So ALBF, sometimes the parisiens get the dregs and believe me they did in this case.

[suein56]

EuroTrash wrote :

I know what you're saying but what you're ignoring is that a lot of people have the right qualifications AND the ability to do the job. In a world where there aren't enough to go round, surely it's right that those ones should be chosen ...

But the trouble can be that often these are the very people who are not chosen.

For example the highly qualified (and highly gifted, according to my husband who was nursed in Hospital by her) coronary nurse left the Hospital after 10 years. Each time a promotion was in the offing she was overlooked - although her work was highly praised by patients and Doctors - and given to someone who had been there for longer. Ancienneté winning rather than quality.

But the Hospital's loss was our gain as she has joined our local group of nurses and now works for herself as (I believe) 'profession libérale'. She is happier and also better off ... and thrilled that her skills are appreciated for what she says feels like the first time in her career.

Sue

[EuroTrash]

"Eurotrash -so you're saying, because of the clear distinctions of qualification etc, everyone knows their place in France, and doesn't need to strive above it? No change to the Rise of the Meritocracy as in the UK?"

No I wasn't saying that at all, not sure where that came from. I was remembering a situation in the UK where a couple of well-qualified young people were recruited into a workforce that was mainly unqualified. They were bright kids and good workers, all they wanted was a job but the supervisor picked on them all the time, the only reason I could see for this was because she felt threatened because they were better qualified than she was and she didn't want them there, and they didn't last long. It was unfair and I felt sorry for them.

[EuroTrash]

@ idun - I totally agree about the ancienneté thing, to me that is stupid. There is no merit in simply having been working there forever. Give them a little pay rise if you feel you have to but don't promote them over more able staff.

[idun]

Do you 'really' understand anciennete ET????? Because from your post it does not sound like it.

[EuroTrash]

Probably not then, what is it? I've only come across it from stuff I've translated, and the impression I got was that in certain posts you notch up pay increases and extra holidays (quite a lot of extra days in some cases) and steps up the ladder based on nothing more than your start date and how long you've been there. Seemed wrong that all you have to do is to get advancement is do the minimum and not leave! So I would be happy to find I have the wrong end of the stick.

[idun]

It is a rotten rotten system that started just after the war.

I'll give you an example and I do understand that things do vary with jobs, but, someone starts work in the UK and their pay grade is say D. The pay for that grade is a starting salary of £15000 a year and within five to seven years it should be £19000 a year, that has nothing to do with cost of living payments, just that grade.

I understand that people can train etc to get more money, but this is the basic, and that things simply stay as they are.

In France it doesn't work like that, so ignore cost of living stuff and courses etc, just basic pay.

A nurse for example starts on 16800€ brut and at the end of their carriere, they will be on 26400€brut, with those regular and petty increases, year on year or every two.

Just examples but one that a nurse I knew in her 30's was rather bitter about. She worked nights and the other nurses had been there for 30 years, not 10 like her. All doing the same job and yet they got hundreds of € more per month, due to that creeping ancienette and they got more holidays. AND they would find a spare bed and she was expected to do all the work, unless there was a real emergency. They said that she could do the same when she had been there 30 years.

Same in many, I would say most professions it is as far as I know how France works, and some will retire never having got onto their maximum salary. And even if one moves up the ladder, then there is the new pay scale. 

I knew of one boss, very very pushy bloke, but all the older blokes who worked for him earned far more, as his bosses pay scale started below theirs after 20 odd years of carriere. It is how it is,and to be honest, when Mitterand stopped pay rises and in the UK people would gripe and moan about 6 or 7% or more, then in France it would be about 0.25%, so that anciennete payment was always more than welcome.

[andyh4]

Eurotrash -so you're saying, because of the clear distinctions of qualification etc, everyone knows their place in France, and doesn't need to strive above it? No change to the Rise of the Meritocracy as in the UK?

A bit like that 2 Ronnies sketch - I know my place.

That was earlier than the 2 Ronnies but I cannot remember the show.

And yes it is like that.

I was drafted into our French office in an emergency following the incumbent becoming sadly incapacitated. My job was to find/create a replacement - and to hold the fort. The senior assistant was an ideal and obvious candidate and required just some grooming to get up to speed - well that and complete reorganisation of the site.

She remained uncertain about taking the role until the reorganisation began, which resulted in the offer of voluntary redundancy. She decided to take the offer (quite generous) and used the time and money to do a degree at the local university and then took up the job she insisted she could not do with us at another company. All she needed to boost her confidence was a piece of paper that qualified her to do so.

[Jo]

Don't forget too that things can change. My OH and I bought in splendid isolation as he wanted a small holding and to keep livestock, bought an old farmhouse just surrounded by derelict barns, a sheep farmer lived down the lane. We were quite happy by ourselves, not ones to go out either. Rural bliss! Until people bought the barn opposite, turned the place into a complete mess, had a pack of uncontrollable dogs, peace and quiet shattered, the sheep farmer decided to sell the sheep and go into buying tractor parts instead, which necessitated large lorries coming up the track to deliver/collect the various vehicles, and I mean BIG lorries. My OH passed away unexpectedly, having never been ill in his life, thankfully before the worst of the changes, so suddenly it was a whole new ball game. Go for isolation by all means we really, really enjoyed the peace and quiet, the beautiful night skies with no light pollution and I still miss it, but be aware that things can change.