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Splendid Isolation...or not?


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Bravo, Erica!  You sound like you have feet firmly planted on the ground.

I live in the Périgord Vert, the best part of the Dordogne in IMHO.  I live in a picturesque village, small and perfectly formed![:D]

Relevant to some of your questions.  Some people just outside our village sold their home and gite complexe (3 bedroom house and 2 gites only suitable for summer lets) for in excess of half a million euros last year.  All renovated more or less by themselves.

But don't let that put you off.  I am informed (you'd understand that I know fewer British people than I can count on the fingers of one hand) that there are UK sellers of fully-renovated gites, mills, etc near here or just over the border in the Charente who are pretty desperate to sell up.

In this part, and I have just discussed this with some French people I walked with this afternoon, that Dordogne people are more open and "plus chaleureux" than people just over the border.  I have also heard other French people, from Paris, from Tours, from south of here that indeed les Dordognais are welcoming folk.  I have lived in both areas but we made friends readily........if your OH is anything like mine, you'd have people trooping up to visit!  That's another story and that could be something of a mixed blessing.....

If you want to do it and if you think it's in the best interest of your family, just keep looking.  Exhaust all the possibilities or you might regret at a later date not having explored all the options.

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Some other points from someone who lives in reality France.

1) Your budget is far far to low.....with 200k you are buying a 2 bed misery apartment in France. Don't be seduced by property prices in rural France. They are cheap for a reason. Houses in France (as well as the cost of living) are expensive.

2) The French Schooling system is fine but it needs to be managed by the parent. That requires French....very good French.

3) The Dordogne is a 'one off' holiday destination......and (close your ears Mint) there are better places to go to in France. It has nice countryside but that is it......nothing else. I don't get the attraction of the Dordogne to the British myself. It is not somewhere you move to with kids as an expat if you want them to have a future. It is a department of broken expat dreams.

Don't do it.

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Nb our best friend living in the same hamlet as us writes on the calendar "les anglaise" for any function etc.

She is half english as well but married to a guy who is nice but speaks patois. Even fluent french speakers would have difficulty.

Go with what you feel - you have had very good advice from this forum.

nb in france friend
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ALBF, I don't know any expats with children here though I did know 2 families in our previous house.  So I can't argue with you regarding moving with children.

As for your other remarks about la Dordogne, I can't agree with those.  It suits us very well and I HAVE looked at many other departments in France.  I had no preference, north, south, east, west but, by sheer good chance, I have found myself in exactly the house and the place that I love being in.

I am out doing some activity or other most days and in fact, I pass up on lots of enjoyable pursuits because both my OH and my dog are elderly and I don't feel it fair to leave them to their own devices all the time.

It is a good idea, as someone else has suggested, to rent somewhere first to see if the OP and her family like it.  However, with a limited budget, it does mean that they will be spending money that could be kept towards a purchase.

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Nb our best friend living in the same hamlet as us writes on the calendar "les anglaise" for any function etc.

She is half english as well but married to a guy who is nice but speaks patois. Even fluent french speakers would have difficulty.

Go with what you feel - you have had very good advice from this forum.

nb best friend in france
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WHAT???? sorry, just about sat here shouting at the screen,when I saw you write that Erica about french education. Yes, you can read boat loads of stuff about good things...... all things bright and beautiful.....blah de blah[:'(]

If you cannot find other than such stuff, well, I give up, because there is lots of stuff out there, and not just me screaming at this screen. Maybe just doing a little search in french about problems in french schools, or just do not bother.

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I guess everyone's individual experience is different, Idun. Have you had children who have had a bad experience? I will do a search in French, I hadn't thought to do it in French so thanks for the advice. I suppose I was looking more for British childrens' experiences hence only searching in English and speaking to British parents.
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I can only give you a view on French education from seeing the results the other end..as my work is with students.

I actually think in terms of basic knowledge and skills, the French students I teach are more grounded in the basics that the British ones were.. that may have changed now as I have not worked with UK students for 6 years .. I don't know. They are perhaps a little less confident about working under their own steam, and almost expect to have the whip cracked.. However that is easy to change!

I have friends with kids in school here.. in Dordogneshire.. Their experiences are by and large positive, with one or two exceptions, which is much the same as the experiences of my friends in the UK. I do think France is much better when it comes to offering trades and apprenticeships but also take the point that that can lead to early stereotyping. One of our French friends did an apprenticeship and then decided he didn't want to do it anymore and it's actually quite hard to go back and do something else.

Many students from round this way have gone on to study at UK Universities direct from Baccalaureate with no problems, although it is worth bearing in mind that at the moment they can do this on the same terms as UK residents with regards to funding. After brexit they may well be treated as overseas students and have to pay overseas fees or live in the UK for 5 years before applying to qualify for UK fees.
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I had my children in France. The eldest is bright enough, the second really bright.

I expected when things started to go wrong that I would have a chat to the teacher and see how we could get him on the right path, that was at 6 years old.

Primaire was not great but he got through, college however, started very very badly and went downhill from there, he got through 5 or was that 6, yes six schools, in those four years. The teachers all hated him, could not cope with a kid, obviously bright, who could not write properly and appeared to be lying all the time.

I shall give an an example that still wounds, because he had a nervous breakdown at 14, that I did not is a miracle. We ended up with him at home and started schooling him ourselves. As I have said, I too have problems writing english, mild dyslexia in my case, his is worse. However, I was always good at maths, as is husband. So we started doing maths, simple and getting harder. 

In the end we had some very difficult algebraic equations that we had done ourselves for him. In theory he should have had at least 10 lines of work to show process, but no he had two, the middle one and the result.

I remember shouting at him, almost accusing him of cheating but he could not have cheated, because he had no access to the answer apart from working it out.

I explained to him that in class the teacher would see that and believe that the odd line he had written down would have been looking at someone else's work and they would believe that he had cheated.

NOW, maths is the ONLY subject that they could have checked to see if he had cheated or not. This DIM WIT(although wit is not the word I have in mind at all) of a teacher could, nay should have said, 'ok you are so clever, go in the corner and do this one on your own', they could have done as we did and invented one. BUT NO, liar and cheat and 0 for a kid who with some encouragement, may have got some joy from maths, because some do, and found his niche. Will he have anything to do with maths now, NO, he has as morbid fear of all educators, because they represent, malice and evil in his mind and rightly so, because apart from one from the age of 11 that is ALL he ever encountered, as instead of helping, the teachers in France, did their level best to NOT.

I was on the class council in college for my eldest, as I said, bright enough kid, and it used to make my blood boil every meeting and what could 'I' say, do your jobs, encourage most of the class, because that is not the way, it is a jungle. The body language of the profs said it all, tutting looking superior as they unrelentingly criticised the majority of the kids, that last 10% who were doing badly got it most. But it all changed for the top 10%, pride and adoration for those that fit, did well.

When my eldest when to lycee, he walked out after the second year. We had seen his new french teacher, his previous one had been brilliant, and this teacher sat there and said, 'if you do not understand in class, that is your fault, I am only hear to give my lessons and not go over things, and will not behave like your previous teacher!' Head held high and a severe criticism of his previous teacher to boot.

NO not just me, I have spoken to endless families, french and with problems, including a surgeon in Bordeaux, in fact all over the country.

So yes, did I have problems, yes, and was I satisfied with the education my eldest got, NO, and I suspect he too has very mild dyslexia too. In France all children do dictee from the age of 6, when you consider that the dictee like every french test is always out of 20 and every last spelling and grammatical mistake is an error of 2 some teachers in primary school will happily give a result of say -18 or whatever.  For some getting zero would have been an achievement for a 6 year old!

And lindal, people do not talk about this stuff. It hurts,  and the feeling of desperation a parent has is something that wounds profoundly and just who do you tell, usually no one.  So you have no idea how it is when it goes wrong and gets worse and worse. People in general will always try and put on a brave face, so who would really know apart from 'perhaps' hearing about visits to the orthophonists, (who have only really been trained to deal with any of this properly since approximately 2000) or the psychologist, and it is douteux that anyone would mention a psychiatrist. I feel sick mentioning it now and could write pages and pages, because my son is very talented, he just has problems writing. IF all his exams had been oral, he should have been in the elite the top 10% such is his IQ, only he still would not have been able to do all the fancy conjugaisons. He is brilliant at sports, at art and would have been at maths too, and he has nothing and I suspect has suffered depression since he was 14, maybe earlier and we live with it and worse still, he does.

And I will feel eternally guilty about staying in France.

A poster told me that things had improved, but really, unless one lives with it (which I'm glad for them, they had not), it is hard to tell, some of the 'help' even in the olde days would help some of the kids, but never all.

I remember Panda, I think it was Panda having a right go at me for saying that I hated french education. And then as her child got older problems started and she left France because of it, many have.

 

And on that, enough. Look it all up, or not, but great it is not and I will still say for normal bright kids, who 'fit' into the system, then it works, deviants, it does not and it should for all kids.

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What a very sad story of your and your sons' experiences, Idun.

I had read comments you have made over the years, but it was much worse than I had realised.

I was one who picked up the pieces in English primary schools and tried to stick them together; some of the children were in a very sorry state even though the system in the UK was less rigid.

I wish your sons well, especially the one who suffered, and still suffers, so much.
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You raise a lot of really important issues there Idun. I can't compare the two educational systems because I don't know that much, but I do know that dyslexia is under diagnosed everywhere..and can have huge effects on school performance. It's also a general term that can combine all sorts of systems and problems. I have a family member who was diagnosed with dyslexia while at school but despite an expensive public school education in the UK never really got any proper help, other than being told he was disruptive. He only really got properly diagnosed and helped when he was about to fail his second university degree and came across a tutor who recognised his problems.(which were far more than dyslexia), got him appropriate treatment and now he has finally graduated. I also had students in UK whose dyslexia was only diagnosed during their post graduate degrees. They reckon that 10% of the population are affected by dyslexia, so it's definitely an under recognised problem.
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and that was the postage stamp version.

My saddest problem is a fully grown man, who has no self esteem, depression and all that that can encompass, and it could be worse.

And sadly his self esteem gets worse when he sees, people obviously, I mean obviously, a lot less bright than he is doing well and he cannot move on. Some people cannot, if he had the fight to do it when young, then that was knocked out of him, mentally, and I consider that it was mental torture. It is not good and maybe one day, the cocoon will burst open and a butterfly will emerge and he will fight onwards and upwards........

And I do realise that there are problems with the UK system too, but there are big differences never the less, and the first is the mentality of those that teach. Lest it be forgotten, those that teach usually were in the top bits of their classes, did well, they knew how it worked, the elitism, and I would suggest, judging by how they would be treat at school in comparison to 'the others' know how special they were and consequently, to look down, and also wonder why Jean, Benoit or Elise were not in the SEGPA.

Then they teach. And they are taught which lessons to give, maybe a little extra these days, but really, when you consider that the current new teachers are my sons generation and a little younger, then I doubt that they were given much other formation about other than their lessons. As I said, even the orthophonists who the teachers believed cured dyslexia had had about a day or twos training in their three to four years....... and all made it up as they went along until approx 2000. My GP with a dyslexic son considered them charlatans for the most part.

In the UK, the training and care in schools is different. I know people here with kids whose dyslexia is on a par with my youngest, but as he is, they are good at some things and were encouraged in them. And I suppose that in that regard they realise that not everone is good at everything, not you cannot write properly so you cheat at maths, when you are not, or given zero in art, because you also have a talent and imagination takes over and it is 'hors suject' rather than the regimented piece that every last kid is supposed to do. I suggest that that would not happen in the UK.

And another thing that I suppose  still gets me, is my 11 year old coming from college, buzzing, first lesson in biology and he loved it. Test at the end of the week and he got zero too........ he had written out every answer phonetically and if the teacher had read the replies out loud, would have known, and probably did, that they were all right. But no, cannot have that in France where french has to be perfect. He hated bio after that and would not work at it.......

Our case is extreme, but believe me I have spoken to an awful lot of french people all over France who have even worse stories.

And I am always delighted to hear of success for any child anywhere. Love it. So for those who have got through the french system and succeeded, well, great, I know it can work.

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1)When I was 'inspected' as a supply teacher I had a difficult conversation with the Inspector because I was trying to apply the idea of 'differentiation', different level tasks and worksheets that were adapted to the different levels in the class. I was told that everyone had to follow the 'programme'. This sums up for me the fact that the system is about 'one size fits all', something one sees in the tight inflexible boxes that people can be forced into in France. This continues later in training where an excellent but very narrow and too specialised path is frequent. Ideas such as 'transferable skills' are  uncommon; indeed 'skills' are much less considered then 'knowledge', which is in fact received practice. This partly explains the lack of initiative and creativity in some areas .

As a trite  example take cooking where recipes are seen as something to reproduce rather than develop. I know that great French chefs are creative, but they have had to prove that they know the classics recipes, and even slight departures are considered to be flaws.

2) When training French graduates  for the region at a later stage in my career I was struck by how very unsure of them selves they often were. They had been victims of the 'teacher is God' syndrome, where the teacher owns the syllabus (often limited to her/is own small area of knowledge, and often full of tiny mistakes, which the student has to reproduce exactly in order to be well 'noté'.)

It took me a good part of the course to make them aware of their abilities and the skills they had to offer based not only on academic work, but practical things such as holiday jobs, memberships of clubs, looking after family members, sporting and cultural activities.

The sort of things that can be useful to an employer because they show something about the candidate's character were almost completely neglected in the French system.

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Norman wrote :

When training French graduates for the region at a later stage in my career I was struck by how very unsure of them selves they often were. They had been victims of the 'teacher is God' syndrome ...

Gosh, how true. Even in my class of retired French people looking to 'improve' their English it has taken the best part of a year of effort on my part to encourage them to see me as someone who is keen to help them rather than to criticise them. At the start one 'student' asked me not to look at her as she was nervous of me. Another would not even try to mumble a reply to a spoken question. All because they were scared of making a mistake - even at their age. And they wanted to be there in class, it was not an obligation.

The treatment they had received at school has stayed with them throughout their adult life.

Only now are some of them coming out of their shells and joining in the class and the conversation - mistakes and all.

Though I do believe matters are slowly improving in schools but I don't think the enduring system of marking is at all helpful. It is entirely negative with no credit given for effort.

Sue
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I wish people would stop talking about Dyslexia as some kind of disorder. Dyslexia is a gift. We are gifted. Chancer can only dream about being so cleaver lol.

Idun is right so far as I would never have got through the French educational system with my gift. I can't​ even use a pen never mind everything else. I can't even sign my name.

If your kid has problems you have to seek medical help outside of the educational system. It is the way it is. My boy has be followed since the age of three. He is grade A at school.

Like I said earlier the educational system is fine but it needs to be managed. You need to be French for that. It is a full time job for my OH. The school our kids are at now is fantastic but that is in Paris. I would not go rural with my kids in France. Have I said that before ? Lol

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But my youngest ended up in a bourgeois city college, and they were worse there, even the Head Medicine Scolaire was VERY arrogant. Head of Pediatric Medicine same city, told him to pull himself together.... GIFT......JAMAIS can I ever believe that as I have my own problems, never mind the kids!!!!

The high up people I saw.....And NOT ONE was capable of helping. At the Academie a very very senior man just shook his head.

I am tenacious, but this has been the worst failure of my life!!!!!!

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Idun - I remember following your boys' struggles in the past. Very hard for all of you.

Something that crystallizes all for me is the fact that 'the correct answer', in french, is 'le bon réponse'. The wrong answer, 'le mauvais réponse'. Making it into a moral situation.

No wonder they prefer to say "je sais pas."

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Chancer am alittlebitdizleksic donchaknow [;-)]

 

Regarding being afraid to (be judge to) make a mistake, I find that so so frustrating in well educated adults who if they could only throw off the trauma of their education would be high flyers, in many ways the dyslexics have an advantage because they have nothing to lose, nobody could be crueller to them than what they ahve already suffered, they wont get anywhere in mainstream French business or fonction publique but many do very well as entrepeneurs and it could be said that they have less competition in France from the educated ones who are scared to take a risk.

 

My French ex girlfriend I knew was very intelligent and highly educated and was at the top of the tree in the Rectorat, I knew that she had studied English and assumed that like all her other subjects her grade would have been pretty impressive, nonetheless she was too frightened to speak any English even to my family, we only spoke in French which was great for me but sometimes when I did not understand her she would say the word in English with perfect prononciation, many were reall Advanced vocabulary so I had a hint that she would be capable if she had the confidence or the motivation.

 

Then she told me that she had to address a conference in another EU country and that she was expected to do so in English, she said she was scared stiff and told them she could not do it, I wrongly assumed that she was unable to do so but I was wrong, it was the fear of making a mistake.

 

On a Holiday in the UK after not speaking one word to my family apart from my belle mere who apparently managed to break through the barrier when I wasnt there, she was asked by the vicar what she thought of the mass service (she was a devout catholic) she answered him at length in perfect English, perfect prononciation with some really complex vocabulary, her English was way better than my French yet in a year together she had never dared speak a word of it.

 

My pal who helps me with my computer, the husband of my old French teacher, a really intelligent guy, whenever he googles anything its in English and he understands everything, he has only ever once asked me what one word meant, yet he too is frightened to speak it although being married to a fluent speaking English teacher I can understand he may feel intimidated.

 

Tonight a Young guy at the running club spoke to me in English, like many others he works for an international company where they do a lot of business in English but he is the first one in 12 years to have the confidence to do so, its a measure of his confidence that his English is very basic but that he wants to try, just like most of the rest of us in French.

Also today I got a Knock at the door and the person said "do you speak English?" [:-))] A Polish lorry driver looking for his delivery address. His luck was in!!!!

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I bet nearly all the French who have moved to and made their fortune in the UK have dislexia or have had some kind of educational problem.

I remember a girl who moved to London with little qualifications who started out as a waitress. Within a year she was manager. That does not happen in France. You have to have the right qualification for the right job. Being able to do the job is secondary. I am not surprised that the French want to stay in the UK.

I am not surprised also that kids and students go around rioting given half the chance. Kids have a grim future in France unless they conform.
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And on that bit about conforming, I agree.

When french roads were driven with such reckless abandon.......... I used to wonder if that was the only place that french people felt truly 'FREE'!

How, what I consider must be all the pent up frustration will come out now I do not know, because driving has changed unbelievably. I hope we do not see even more suicides, it is bad enough in France.

And yes, I know french people who have moved and ended up with great jobs, quickly, that is not the french way.

Erica, this is France we are talking about.

I have never understood this 'desire' to move specifically to France and the french countryside etc etc etc. I know I moved there, but we were young and  simply ready for an adventure and would have moved anywhere, with a job and skiing. We did not speak any french, know anything about France, although a good friend offered to send me soap[Www].

 

Also you mention your own work, have you looked into your earnings once you do it from France and have to be registered in France?????? Maybe you should.

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"a girl who moved to London with little qualifications who started out as a waitress. Within a year she was manager. That does not happen in France. You have to have the right qualification for the right job. Being able to do the job is secondary."

That's not entirely joined up logic. I know what you're saying but what you're ignoring is that a lot of people have the right qualifications AND the ability to do the job. In a world where there aren't enough to go round, surely it's right that those ones should be chosen, before (a) the ones who have the ability but couldn't be ar5ed to get their noses down for a year or so and put in the effort and (b) the ones that went through the motions and have the paperwork but not the flair.

There used to be a weird kind of inverted snobbery in some UK workplaces where those who had qualifications were sneered at by those who didn't who were above them or even working alongside them, I guess they felt a bit threatened hence the put-down reaction and it wasn't very pleasant sometimes. I'm guessing there isn't this particular kind of bad feeling in the workplace in France.

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