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Pound BELOW parity?


NormanH
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Martin, If memory serves, anyone who had a mortgage in 1989 would still be quids in - I was looking at pre 2000 prices the other day, a house locally would have been under £80,000 - they peaked last year at around £350,000 - there is a very long way to go before a pre 2000 buyer would have a problem.

As for 'there's no such thing as society' quote, handily someone on TF quoted it :

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation"

Ah yes Mr Cat, better to be in government without principals than out of government with some [:)]

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Thanks for the Mrs T quote.

Agreed,  of course by now the "immediate" problems of the 1989 - 91 house price collapse have dissipated.

But we all know people who at the time lost their houses,  their marriages, their dignity.   I'd hardly describe them as quids in,  some of them to this day carry the catastrophe.   One friend has finally (in the last month) got back on the property ladder (shared equity scheme) after losing her house (and subsequently marriage) in 1991.

I know what you're driving at though!

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But we all know people who at the time lost their houses,  their marriages, their dignity.   I'd hardly describe them as quids in,  some of them to this day carry the catastrophe.   One friend has finally (in the last month) got back on the property ladder (shared equity scheme) after losing her house (and subsequently marriage) in 1991.

Yep, my oldest friends lost their home and have rented ever since, and their relationship suffered, though they survived. I appreciate what you are saying.

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Couldn't agree more Norman.   You don't give up do you!

But what you said earlier (roughly) was that it all started with Mrs T.   As I (and others) pointed out,  the problems were there long before that.

We were taught in history that no democracy had ever survived an inflation rate of over 20%.   I think that it may be right that Britain is the only one that (subsequently) has.  

One of the problems with Labour in the 70's was they poured petrol on the flames of inflation when they were elected in 1974,   and whereas France's inflation peaked at 15% in 1976 (which was bad enough) our rate went to 27%,  largely due to the so-called "social contract" (social con would have been a better description) of 1974 when Labour basically paid the unions whatever they wanted.

The pain of the 1980's was partly due to our horrendous inflation of the 70's,  and partly due to the British disease of fighting to the finish rather than finding a compromise before it's too late.

It's why I'm much more hopeful about France,  because already in recent history both sides have pulled back from the brink of confrontation (autumn 2007) and found ways to accommodate each other.    Something that didn't happen in Britain and was the fault of both sides.

But with la crise financiere anything could happen.   Greece has shown that.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

Ah yes Mr Cat, better to be in government without principals than out of government with some [:)]

[/quote]

I'd certainly agree that there is a marked lack of principals in politics these days and not just in the UK.  More like a version of 'strictly celebrity fame academy I've got talent innit'.

But there's a fine line between principals, doctrine and dogma.

Old labour's problem was that they were wedded to tired working class dogma which was inappropriate to the changed labour market and increasingly irrelevant to a population that no longer indentified with class tags.  As a result they were unelectable.  Politics being the art of the possible they adopted, although I would argue never fully understood, free market policies.

Mr Cat

 

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I wish some people would change the record.  How many more years are we going to blame Margaret Thatcher for everything bad that happens to the UK economy - for goodness sake it was 16 years ago!  Why not blame Churchill?  At the time I thought Mrs T was the devil incarnate as a lot of her policies affected us badly, but she had been left in a similar situation (as now) by the then Labour government and had some very difficult decisions to make - strikes occurring on a weekly basis, the car and many nationalised industires on their knees, rubbish uncollected, inflation running at 28% and a mountain of debt (sound familiar).  For the time she was prime minister at least we had some clout in Europe and beyond unlike the lame dog and soft touch for immigrants we are perceived as now.  People have very short memories.
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A legacy of Thatcher's "strength" is that, ever since, no-one has wanted to appear weak.

Maggie went to war; Major goes to war; Tony goes to war; Gordon continues war.

Maggie jumped on the Reagan bandwaggon by removing regulation of markets. Big bucks for everyone who wanted a slice of the action. Tony turns Labour into free market New Labour to keep on the (unreal) upward spiral. Whether or not he could see the flaw, Gordon dared not be the one to put a spanner in the works.

Bubble bursts. (But Maggie and Tony are in the clear, still sitting on their millions)

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It's really pretty good. I have just bought a new camera in the uk and saved nearly 200€ on the french price. There are certainly plenty of bargains to be had now. If the pound plunges a bit more it will be time to by myself a Healey 3000which I have wanted for a while and is now looking like a grab.. I had a really good time during Maggies time made a bit of dosh and got out in 1990 just in time. I have to say that the crunch aint hurting us much in France customers keep rolling in and spending.

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[quote user="Steve"]I wish some people would change the record.  How many more years are we going to blame Margaret Thatcher for everything bad that happens to the UK economy - for goodness sake it was 16 years ago!  Why not blame Churchill?  At the time I thought Mrs T was the devil incarnate as a lot of her policies affected us badly, but she had been left in a similar situation (as now) by the then Labour government and had some very difficult decisions to make - strikes occurring on a weekly basis, the car and many nationalised industires on their knees, rubbish uncollected, inflation running at 28% and a mountain of debt (sound familiar).  For the time she was prime minister at least we had some clout in Europe and beyond unlike the lame dog and soft touch for immigrants we are perceived as now.  People have very short memories.     [/quote]

And quite distorted ones it appears.

At the time of Thatcher's election in 1979 inflation was under 10% and had been falling regularly for months. It would be three years before it was to get that low again - peaking at around 22% mid 1980. On top of that her chancellor raised base rates to 17% within months of that election and almost doubled VAT. Highest base rate under Labour was 15%.

I remember those times well and it was tough for both savers and borrowers - and very little to do with what she inherited from Labour.

As to clout in Europe most of my european friends regarded her as either as a  dickensian war monger or some kind of throwback to victorian imperialism.

rgds

Hagar 

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[quote user="Russethouse"]Alan, Just FYI Mrs T had 'millions before she was ever PM, via husband Dennis. I'm sure her PM salary was useful but hardly life and death, and remember that the salaries are decided via a set process.[/quote]

I never thought for a moment she was in it for the salary. That's why it made no difference to her whatsover to make the magnanimous gestrure of refusing increases in the ministerial pay the others were so keen to secure for themselves. And as Tony quickly learnt, once you've made the big time, there are far more bucks to be made afterwards on the celeb circuit.

 

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I think, Hagar, that your memory must be distorted or ill-informed.  I received a 28% pay rise in 1979 as a result of the high inflation so don't tell me it had been falling consistently to10% when the conservatives came to power - I can't imagine my employer making such a mistake!  The reason for the hike in base rates and the increase in VAT was to pay back all the borrowing of the previous Labour government (no change there then).  In fact, unless my distorted memory has kicked in again, the one and only time this country's GDP has been in credit was under Mrs Thatcher's government - the Blair government soon managed to spend all that didn't they?  I predict that the exact same scenario will occur in a year or so; the Conservatives will get into power, they will have to raise taxes because of the barmy policies of this Labour government and again, make a number of very harsh decisions and lo and behold they will be blamed again in 20 years time by people like you.  

As for your European friends, from my experience you need to take what anyone in Europe says about the UK with a pinch of very large salt - jealousy often springs to mind  - they have never had such a strong leader either then or now and were told a few home truths by Margaret Thatcher.  It was the one and only period that we have got anything at all out of our membership of the EU (who was that who sold us down the river by forfeiting our right to a rebate?).  Your European friends must be rubbing their hands together that at last the UK has returned to the "good old days" of Labour.  We are, once again, the poor man of Europe.

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Hagar,

Mrs Thatcher is hated by 'died in the wool' labour supporters because she made the decisions which were necessary to mitigate the effects of the previous labour govt which said supporters loved so much.

The same will happen again.

Do some serious research, be objective and remove the 'red labour mist' from your eyes.

The present labour govt 'inherited' an extremely healthy economy, they have destroyed that inheritance. Of course its not their fault, its always someone to blame (previous administration, USA, Europe, terrorism, cost of wars etc etc).

A Govt is supposed to look ahead, plan ahead, consider the future possibilities / probabilities and, above all, look after the country to the best benefit of the citizens. Can you honestly, hand-on-heart say the present Govt have done that?

Perhaps the opposition will be no better, but could they be any worse - no, I dont think so.

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I had decided not to rise to Hagar's points,   but the two previous posters have more than eloquently expressed the matter as I remember it.

It is true that inflation had come down from its 1976 27% peak by the time Callaghan was driven out,  but it was already back on the way up again in early 1979,  following the failure of the "fourth stage" of the government's income policy.   And the only reason it had fallen was because the IMF had driven a bit of sense into the Healey/Callaghan team;   and thank goodness.    To this day Anthony Wedgewood Benn continues to blame the IMF for the failure of the administration,  which just shows what an arrogant whatsit he is.

Having said all that,   I realise that this debate is futile.    Just as Norman and Hagar aren't going to convince me,   I realise that people who loathe Mrs Thatcher are not going to change their views either.    And I would be the first to admit that she did some idiotic things,  I'm only a partial fan.     I was at the BBC at the time that she and Tebbit started trashing it,  from which it's never really recovered (putting the AWFUL Birt in charge was an extremely cunning method of making sure Auntie tottered).

So,  by all means have a last word,  it's your right,   but I MUST get on and do other things.

And -  whatever your views - we all have a love of France in common,  threatened for many of us by the fall of the £,  so to all fellow francophiles suffering at the moment I wish you a JOYEUSE NOEL!!    And hope the £ starts to recover soon.

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[quote user="velcorin"]

 There, no more arguements about true figures.

 http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/mfsd/iadb/Repo.asp?Travel=NIxIRx

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/economic_trends/ET626_CPI.pdf

[/quote]

Thanks velcorin - I could add this one which clearly shows that the figures I quoted on inflation in 1978/79 were "well researched" and correct. Nothing to do with "red labour mist". Also shows that Steve's employer was very generous indeed.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/RP04.pdf

I accept there can be debate about exactly why interest rates and inflation rose so sharply and for so long after MT came to power. Personally I beleive it has much more to do with her doggedly following the monetarist theories of Keith Joseph and Milton Friedman than with the paying of labour debt.

I met Keith Joseph a couple of times in 1979/80 - He struck me as coming from a completely different planet. One of my colleagues at the time asked me if I thought he was on drugs.

rgds

Hagar

 

 

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