Timescale - getting tax back from UK

[allanb]

Now I understand your point about the micro-foncier adjustment.  But I still don't see your problem with the declaration form.  

As far as I know there's nowhere on the form to declare the amount of any abattements.  I don't think it's the taxpayer's job to claim them; it's the job of the tax office to apply them when they calculate the RFR.  This is the way it works for pensions.  It certainly works for my pension which is exonéré: I report it in Section VII as we've discussed - just the numbers and the description "pension" under nature in column 3 - and the 10% abattement is applied to the RFR without any further action from me.

It worked in exactly the same way with the old 20% additional abattement which was abolished in (I think) 2006.

If you do the same thing with foreign rents, and write "micro-foncier" in column 3, it should work in the same way with the 30%.  If it doesn't, you will have a justified complaint, and they won't be able to say that you failed to fill in the form correctly.

This is of course assuming that the amount falls under the micro-foncier limit.  If it doesn't, I presume you would just call it "revenu foncier" and declare any relevant expenses in column 6.

[allanb]

Sorry, I posted my last message before I'd seen the three previous ones.  I don't need to change anything in it, but I would like to add something.

First, just to recap: French tax law provides a way of assessing tax on anyone who has income exempt from French tax (revenu exonéré) under a DTT.  That means any DTT, not just the UK/France one.  You take the RFR, which by definition includes the revenu exonéré, and compute the tax that would be payable in France if it were all taxable in France.  The rest of the calculation follows from that, and (with respect to Cooperlola) none of it depends in any way on "European tax legislation".

This "theoretical" or "notional" French tax takes into account any abattements that would be available.  These certainly include the 10% general abattement, and also the additional 20% which was abolished in 2006.  In my own case, the pension I referred to is in fact from the US and is taxable in the US under the US/France treaty.  It makes no difference to the principle.  My tax computation includes the 10% reduction every year, and it also included the 20% until it was abolished.

 

I don't think Parsnips' argument depends on a newspaper article.  He has said that the 30% deduction from rental income (if the income is less that a certain limit) is treated in the same way as any other abattement.  I have no special knowledge or experience of this, but unless there's something that says it isn't, then it probably is.  In which case there's no need to call it a concession; it isn't a concession, it's in the law. 

 

Another comment, which may be called nitpicking, but I think it clarifies a slight misunderstanding.  Cooperlola writes: "After all, the dual taxation agreements between EU countries do not apply to [those from outside the Union], as SD says."  Not quite.  If you're resident in France and you have income arising in country X, then its taxation is subject to the DTT between France and X.  It doesn't matter where you're from. 

Finally, it's worth mentioning that DTTs generally determine only which country has the right to tax something. They don't say anything about how the tax should be computed.

[cooperlola]

Thank you for clearing that up.  Just to be perfectly clear (because, as I said, I really do not know), do you mean that all these dual taxation treaties are the same?  ie, foreign income, whatever its source, has the same rules applied?  And do DTTs exist between France and all other countries, or just some?

All I meant to say was that as I know our health arrangements are different from non-Europeans, I felt it didn't necessarily follow that we would be taxed in the same way.  I didn't mean to imply that we weren't - if you get what I mean!

 

[allanb]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Do you mean that all these dual taxation treaties are the same?  ie, foreign income, whatever its source, has the same rules applied?[/quote]They're certainly not all the same, but I think you could say they all have the same purpose, which is to answer the question "The two countries agree that if someone lives in country A and has a piece of income arising in country B, it should be taxed in one or the other, but not both: so which shall it be?"

Once that has been determined, the rules for computing the tax are a matter for A or B, whichever it is.  I don't think DTTs usually say anything about tax rates, deductions, allowances, etc.

My own humble US pension is an example of the possible differences between treaties.  It's a state retirement pension, earned by working and paying social security contributions in the US for a certain period.  So it's just the same kind of thing as the UK state retirement pension.  However, under the US/France treaty, that kind of pension - when received by a French resident - is taxed in the country that pays it, whereas under the France/UK treaty, a UK pension of the same kind would be taxed in the country of residence.

[quote]And do DTTs exist between France and all other countries, or just some?[/quote]Not all, but lots.  France apparently has 108 tax treaties, which (if each one is with a different country) is more than half of the countries in the world.  The UK has a few more than that - if you're interested, you can see the complete list on the HMRC website.

[cooperlola]

Thanks very much.  That is really interesting.  I had supposed that the levels and types of tax were not up for negotiation and are left to individual nations.  If not, the anti-EUers would be having an absolute field day! 

Cheers.[B]

[cheminot]

The story so far....... I sent in my FD5 forms with my completed tax forms to the Hotel des Impots last may. The FD5's seem to have made it as far as the UK before being 'lost'.

Eventually, after many phone calls, emails and two more sets of forms later Nottingham finally acknowledged they had received them in december.

In january the Bootle office told me they had received them and would process them.

Ten days ago I receive the letter I had been waiting for telling me that they had credited my account with a refund for 2007 and had instructed my pension providers to refund all the tax I had paid in 2008, yippee!!!

 Er, not quite! I check my bank account, nothing. I phone my pension providers who say, ''We haven't received the letter yet but even if we had its too late to process it for this financial year so you'll have to go back to HMRC and ask for it''.

I phone HMRC, ''You say you have paid me back my tax for 2007 but it isn't in my account''.

Reply, '' We hold a few back for a second audit and yours is one of them''.

"How long will that take?".

 Reply, "Dont know".

 Next question, "My pension providers say it is too late for them to repay my tax for 2008 so what happens now?"

Reply,"When you get your P60's send them to us and we'll process a refund".

 "How long will that take?"

Reply, "About 3 months after receipt of P60's"

And the icing on the cake? This morning I receive a letter from the 'Impots' telling me they had miscalculated my tax and I owe them another €640!

cheminot

[mint]

Oh, Cheminot, I am so sorry to hear about your experience.

We ourselves have been told they had received our forms from France but, as I have said earlier, I'm not holding my breadth.

[Phil & Pat]

[quote user="cheminot"]... Reply,"When you get your P60's send them to us and we'll process a refund".

 "How long will that take?"

Reply, "About 3 months after receipt of P60's" ...

[/quote]

Cheer up Cheminot.  My tax refund was a little delayed and they paid me some interest.  [:)]

[krusty]

Yippee , I received my tax rebate today................boo hoo it did not cover what we spent on doors yesterday.

From when they told me in Feb this year it was on its way ,  I had heard nothing by the end of April so I sent them an email .To which they apologized and said they would get on to it , true to their word .

To all of you still waiting , good luck.

[mint]

Krusty, thank you for posting.

There might be hope for us yet!

By this time, I just want the whole damned thing resolved.  When the tax rebate comes (if it does come), it'll probably be worth another 10% or whatever down, bearing in mind all the political turmoil back in the UK..............

I hate HM whatever they're called these days![:'(]

[suein56]

[quote user="suein56"][quote user="sweet 17"]

Lucky Nell!

Ours filled in last May and not a dicky bird so far![:@] [/quote]

Yep, same situation here.[/quote]

We have just received our rebates from HMRC; I am in shock.

We delivered the forms to Vannes tax office in May 2008, and were told they had been stamped and sent on to Paris when we enquired in October 2008. UK said they had not received them when we enquired in May this year; but that Paris were sometimes a tad tardy as they batch forwarded. Enquired again in October and it was suggested we might want to re-do the forms as they seemed to be lost. I did not do this, I thought I would leave it til the New Year. Then the rebates suddenly appeared in our bank accounts a few days ago.

Just one question: I suppose we will receive a letter/notification about our rebates? As so far we have heard not a dicky bird, and it was only 'cos I looked at my UK account online that I saw I had been reimbursed. [8-)][blink]

[Patf]

You're lucky, Sue, though on second thoughts it has taken longer than mine, which I haven't got yet. 

I received a statement on Monday showing how the rebate is worked out, and how much. They said a payable order would be sent out separately - no sign of it yet.

I did ask earlier if it could be paid direct into my UK account and they said No.

[mint]

Yessssss, OH got a cheque with promise of another one!!!!!!

Not so for the tax paid on interest in savings accounts, however.  Will get round to filling in self-assessment forms soon and then.......on vera (as they say in this strange country in which we all live!)

[suein56]

[quote user="Patf"]I did ask earlier if it could be paid direct into my UK account and they said No.[/quote]

That is interesting; I wonder why not? To date we have nothing to say our files/dossiers have been dealt with, other than we have received appropriate reimbursements to our UK bank accounts. Perhaps an enquiring email might be in order ... hmmm.

[cheminot]

'I did ask earlier if it could be paid direct into my UK account and they said No.'

Yes it can.

Mine was, but you have to fill in the part of the form that asks if you want it paid into another persons account. You simply put your own details in there.

cheminot