Timescale - getting tax back from UK

[tuppence]

I am delighted for Nell but like the rest of us non-paid posters I am angry too[6]. However I rang Nottingham yesterday, a weekly call now. I told the lovely Margaret that I spoke to that she should tell all her colleagues to pull their proverbial fingers out and GIVE US OUR MONEY. I also mentioned that there were several people over here sitting with a bottle of paracetamol in one hand and a bottle of vodka in the other, hoping it might appeal to her softer side. Did it hell!!  Perhaps in a couple of weeks she said, perhaps when the moon comes off nights I said. [:D]

tuppence

[BobDee]

Our UK accountant told us that the Brit Gov has recruited 20000 extra tax staff to chase tax defaulters but has cut drastically the number of staff whose responsibility it is to repay tax over-payments. Isn't this stealng? 

BobD

[Vanman]

I am new to the forum (and fairly new to France) so I apologise if this has been dealt with elsewhere.

I can see that I can't start the FD5 process until I submit my first French tax return. My first return - for 2008 - will be pretty simple, and in principle I'll have all the figures to do so in early January. But how soon will the Hotel des Impots release the tax return forms for 2008? Will I have to wait until March/April/May?

[krusty]

Vanman , just a thought , the first step is the P85 ...did you do one ?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/tax-leave-uk.htm

[Vanman]

Krusty: the P85 isn't compulsory, and in some circumstances it's not very helpful. I moved here at the beginning of this calendar year (2008) and sent in my 2007/8 UK tax return with HS304, claiming split year treatment, and I got the tax refund fairly soon afterwards. I think completing the NR pages on the return, and HS304, gives HMRC much the same information as is on the P85.

I asked about the French tax returns because all the written stuff I could track down focused on the latest French filing dates, rather than the earliest ones.

[cooperlola]

Sadly, Vanman, you will have to wait until approx next March.  Try as you might you're unlikely to be able to persuade the tax office to deal with you until the '08 forms are issued.  But the moment they are there is nothing to stop you submitting them the next day.

[Vanman]

Thanks cooperlola: that's rather what I thought.

I wonder why in the UK your tax return is sent to you on the day after the end of the tax year (and the form, but without your name on it, is available well before that), but in France there's a three month gap? Is it something to do with fixing the tax rates and allowances for the year after it has ended?

[krusty]

I was spot when I  said I would have to start at square one. I had the letter today , it has taken them 4 months to tell me a copy is not acceptable because it has not gone through the system .....we all know what comes out after going through the system ...sh1t.

[krusty]

So at the start of Jan I sent off another FD5 to my local French tax office .

In Feb I sent the UK tax office an email to ask if  the FD5 had reached them , they replied saying no and I would have to chase it up with the French tax office.

The next day I received a letter from the UK tax office saying my claim had been processed and I would soon receive my tax refund.......yippee

[mint]

Krusty, I wish I could say we have something to celebrate but I won't tempt Providence![;-)]

OH keeps getting letters from various Tax Offices saying what his tax code for the year is.  He rang Leicester, where the first letter comes from, and extracted an admission from them that their computers are up the creek but that they would not send him any more tax codes.

The following day, another letter came from Newcastle, again telling him what his tax code would be.  Another phone call and they have now said that they did receive all our documents from France on 9 December last year.

So, a tax rebate in sight and the annuities paid net of tax?  Won't believe it until it happens but at least they have now agreed that we are tax resident in France and that we are already paying our dues!

It just gets to boring and so long-winded, I am now dreading what will happen to me this year when I reach the Big 60 and have to sort out all my stuff from now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, just pour me another of those strong wine, aperitif, digestif, whatever because I can't hack it anymore, period!

[cooperlola]

On the subject of the timescales.  I helped some friends to do their tax return last spring.  We submitted their FD5 with it.  They have just received their rebate.

[sueyh]

We rent out a property in the UK and have now discovered that we are being taxed in the UK for the rent and also in France. What should we do?

Suey

[Maricopa]

[quote user="sueyh"]We rent out a property in the UK and have now discovered that we are being taxed in the UK for the rent and also in France. What should we do? Suey[/quote]

It is correctly taxed in the UK.  It also needs to be declared in France on the 2047 section VII before being transfered across to the nominated section on the main tax form.  No further tax in normally due, but it is used to calculate your Revenue Fiscal de Reference (RFR).

Take a look at the Tax Facts in the finance section for further info.

[sueyh]

Did declare it but perhaps not in the right place....! DUH......

Suey

[parsnips]

[quote user="Maricopa"]

[quote user="sueyh"]We rent out a property in the UK and have now discovered that we are being taxed in the UK for the rent and also in France. What should we do? Suey[/quote]

It is correctly taxed in the UK.  It also needs to be declared in France on the 2047 section VII before being transfered across to the nominated section on the main tax form.  No further tax in normally due, but it is used to calculate your Revenue Fiscal de Reference (RFR).

Take a look at the Tax Facts in the finance section for further info.

[/quote]

Hi,

   Lots of people have this problem mainly because the french declaration is not well designed for this situation. I always advise people to put nothing on the declaration except a note at 2047 sec VII referring to "papier libre", but to send with it a letter setting out the rents , the UK tax paid, and associated expenses , and most importantly pointing out that this income is by "convention internationale" taxable only in the UK and only to be "pris en comte pour le calcule du taux effectif".

[allanb]

[quote user="parsnips"]Lots of people have this problem mainly because the french declaration is not well designed for this situation. I always advise people to put nothing on the declaration except a note at 2047 sec VII referring to "papier libre"...[/quote]With respect, I don't think there's any problem with the form; you have column 4 for the gross rent, column 5 for the UK tax, and column 6 for the expenses, and simply by putting the totals in section VII you are making the necessary statement that this is revenu exonéré, pris en compte... etc.

There may be no harm in sending another piece of paper with details, but what does it achieve?

[Sunday Driver]

Agreed.  The forms are straightforward, so why complicate matters by ignoring the instructions?

The working calculation goes on the 2047 and the section VII total is then entered in the relevant box on the declaration in order to generate the adjustment to the RFR.  A well defined procedure, simple to complete.

 

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

Agreed.  The forms are straightforward, so why complicate matters by ignoring the instructions?

The working calculation goes on the 2047 and the section VII total is then entered in the relevant box on the declaration in order to generate the adjustment to the RFR.  A well defined procedure, simple to complete.[/quote]

Hi,

    Given that they fulfil the conditions people who receive UK rent are entitled to "micro-foncier", which is difficult to get across just using the forms. Also where there are UK government pensions as well it can become confusing, I know somebody who declared as you recommend who ended up getting taxed on his rents. Maybe our local tax office is exceptionally inefficient--they have made many mistakes of this nature; thats why I always spell it out.

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="sueyh"]Did declare it but perhaps not in the right place....! DUH...... Suey[/quote]This sounds likely.  In your shoes, I would speak to my local tax office.  It is probably possible to adjust this when you do your '08 returns so you can get any rebate you are due.  Certainly you need to make sure it's correctly declared this time so it doesn't happen twice.

As Allan and S/D explain above, there is provision on the tax form for you to declare, very easily and simply, tax which is payable in the UK but which is taken into account when calculating your RFR.  There is certainly no need to bypass the system, imho.  But you probably are due a refund - you definately shouldn't pay in both countries.

[Sunday Driver]

Under what conditions would people who receive UK rent be entitled to "micro-foncier"??

 

 

[allanb]

[quote user="parsnips"]Given that they fulfil the conditions people who receive UK rent are entitled to "micro-foncier", which is difficult to get across just using the forms. [/quote]I don't get it.  We are talking about rent that is not taxable in France, but the micro-foncier régime applies (if at all) only to rent that is taxable in France, doesn't it?

[parsnips]

[quote user="allanb"][quote user="parsnips"]Given that they fulfil the conditions people who receive UK rent are entitled to "micro-foncier", which is difficult to get across just using the forms. [/quote]I don't get it.  We are talking about rent that is not taxable in France, but the micro-foncier régime applies (if at all) only to rent that is taxable in France, doesn't it?

[/quote]

Hi,

     As foreign rents are used to calculate a "notional" tax rate to apply to the french-taxable portion of income, anything which reduces that "notional" rate ,reduces the final tax bill ,also the "notionally taxable"rents are included in the calculation of the revenu global de référence which is used to calculate CMU cotisations.

     There is nothing in law or regulations which excludes such rents from the "micro" regime ,indeed if under the limit they fall into it "en plein droit".

      I have read an article in "les echos" which advised a french resident with rents from New York that he was entitled to it.

      That is not to say that the tax office will not give the "knee-jerk" reaction that it is not available for foreign rents, but ask them for references.

      You would presumably not suggest that UK government pensions should not benefit from the 10% abattemente before being used to calculate the taux éffectif.    

[Sunday Driver]

The Notice to the 2047 states that "Les revenus qui, en virtu d'un convention internationale, ne sont pas imposables en France, mais doivent etre pris en compte pour le calcul de taux effective d'imposition doivent etre portés sur la déclaration d'ensemble des revenus No 2042 ligne TI du paragraphe 8."  There is no mention of reporting those non-taxable revenues elsewhere in order to obtain notional tax rate benefits through pension abattements or micro-fonciere reliefs.

Other than referring to a newspaper article which mentions a situation in the US that has no apparent relevance to the UK France dual taxation treaty, can you tell us which law or regulation allows for property rentals which are taxable in the UK to be classed as a 'micro-fonciere'?  Can you also point to a regulation which suggests that UK government pensions can benefit from the 10% abattement for calculation of taux éffectif?

 

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The Notice to the 2047 states that "Les revenus qui, en virtu d'un convention internationale, ne sont pas imposables en France, mais doivent etre pris en compte pour le calcul de taux effective d'imposition doivent etre portés sur la déclaration d'ensemble des revenus No 2042 ligne TI du paragraphe 8."  There is no mention of reporting those non-taxable revenues elsewhere in order to obtain notional tax rate benefits through pension abattements or micro-fonciere reliefs.

Other than referring to a newspaper article which mentions a situation in the US that has no apparent relevance to the UK France dual taxation treaty, can you tell us which law or regulation allows for property rentals which are taxable in the UK to be classed as a 'micro-fonciere'?  Can you also point to a regulation which suggests that UK government pensions can benefit from the 10% abattement for calculation of taux éffectif?[/quote]

 Hi,

 All I can tell you is that myself and every other govt. pension recipient that I know have always been given this abattement, as should be the case if you look at the definition of the revenu fiscal de reference, which is that it is  revenu which would be taxable in france were it not for the DTT after any relevant abattements. The non-discrimination clause also has a bearing.  As for the "les echos" article ," les echos" is a bit more than just a newspaper; it is , like the FT , the newspaper of reference for financial matters.  Can you point to  any law or regulation that excludes such rents?

     The fact that the very badly conceived and laid out french tax forms do not allow for such a case, is hardly an argument. If the french allow such a concession on US rents, it is hardly likely they would forbid it on UK rents,is it?

 

[cooperlola]

Whilst I would not claim to know the answer to this particular question, I do know that Europeans are often treated differently from those from outside the EU.  For instance, the new rules barring non-French EU citizens from the health service here, do not apply to those from outside the Union.  They can still join the CMU whereas we cannot.  So I see no reason why they shouldn't have different tax rules also.  After all, the dual taxation agreements between EU countries do not apply to them, as S/D says.

Still, I'm always willing to learn new ways of saving tax, so am looking forward to seeing the European tax legislation which backs your assertions, Parsnips, so I can quote this to my tax office.  I don't think they'd accept a newpaper article, no matter in how much asteem such a publication is held.