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OUCH! Tax d'habitation


Chancer
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I filled out a from H1 in the summer of 2007 and knew that due to massive underdeclaration by the previous owners my taxes would rise, I had thought until now that they had conveniently lost my dossier but today the bill arrived and it hasearly tripled from €254 to €718.

It could not have come at a worse time as a combination of things have reduced my income by 48% and despite all the remaining economies that I could make (the property is not even insured now) I am eating up my savings every month.

I woud like to go back and negotiate once again, my French is much better and there are a few things that I can do to make the imposition more just as the area that I inhabit, the only area habitable in practical terms is een smaller than what was previuosly declared. I can make my storage heaters free standing and connect them via a plug, totally against my nature but the whole 270m2 SHOB is deemed to have central heating as a result of  my tiny flat, I can remove two staircases which are soon to come out anyway and use the materials crane instead to access them, I can also argue on the level of confort that they have decided, once again based on my small flat whereas the main building has no plaster on the walls or even a sink or toilet.

I would like to argue the toss on all these issues just for having tried however I have one nagging doubt. It has taken them 2 years to action this change (I am at least gratefull for that) but I wonder whether they did it just after sending out the taxes foncieres bill which has remained unchanged apart from a 20% rise for the departement and 8% for all the other bits and hence I may be shooting myself in the foot?

My question is: When a property is revalued is it only the taxe d'habitation that is affected?

For info my Td'H bill is based on a valeur locative which has been reassessed from 1197 to 3200 wheareas the Taxes Foncieres are based on  a base of 1600 which is unchanged, I do not know if this is in any way linked to the valeur locative.

Thanks in anticipation

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[quote user="Chancer"]

I filled out a from H1 in the summer of 2007 and knew that due to massive underdeclaration by the previous owners my taxes would rise, I had thought until now that they had conveniently lost my dossier but today the bill arrived and it hasearly tripled from €254 to €718.

It could not have come at a worse time as a combination of things have reduced my income by 48% and despite all the remaining economies that I could make (the property is not even insured now) I am eating up my savings every month.

I woud like to go back and negotiate once again, my French is much better and there are a few things that I can do to make the imposition more just as the area that I inhabit, the only area habitable in practical terms is een smaller than what was previuosly declared. I can make my storage heaters free standing and connect them via a plug, totally against my nature but the whole 270m2 SHOB is deemed to have central heating as a result of  my tiny flat, I can remove two staircases which are soon to come out anyway and use the materials crane instead to access them, I can also argue on the level of confort that they have decided, once again based on my small flat whereas the main building has no plaster on the walls or even a sink or toilet.

I would like to argue the toss on all these issues just for having tried however I have one nagging doubt. It has taken them 2 years to action this change (I am at least gratefull for that) but I wonder whether they did it just after sending out the taxes foncieres bill which has remained unchanged apart from a 20% rise for the departement and 8% for all the other bits and hence I may be shooting myself in the foot?

My question is: When a property is revalued is it only the taxe d'habitation that is affected?

For info my Td'H bill is based on a valeur locative which has been reassessed from 1197 to 3200 wheareas the Taxes Foncieres are based on  a base of 1600 which is unchanged, I do not know if this is in any way linked to the valeur locative.

Thanks in anticipation

[/quote]

 

I'd like to help - I posted a similar question but there appear to be no answer from the No1 French  forum.

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To my knowledge there is usually a 2 years period of grace at the old rate after filling out the H1 form after renovation. That certainly happened in our case and then both our taxe fonciere and taxe d'habitation more than doubled (but from a very low baseas the house is small). Try negotiating, Chancer. I've heard of others who have managed to get reductions by arguing their case.

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Thank you for your kindness Sunny, you have brightened my sunless day [;-)]

I am surprised that no-one seems to know as I have lost count of the times that I have read people, shall we say encouraging, others to declare any additions to their properties to avoid getting a big tax bill later on as they will surely be found out when selling their property (which is rubbish as my predecessors can attest !).

 I naively expected that they had indeed filled out the dreaded H1 and would know the answer.

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Sorry to hear of your unwelcome surprise. It seems pretty clear from this and other posts that you are working on a tight budget and blows like this I'm sure you don't need.

I too though that these things were an integral part of the buying process so I wonder how it slipped through in your case.

I have to say that €718 does seem a hell of a lot and I just wonder if there is an element of back payment in there ?

Whether you think it's futile or counterproductive to appeal it or not if this has put you on the wrong side of the slippery slope I don't think you really have much choice but to try do you ?

After getting over the shock I think there may be a few avenues to explore before resigning yourself to your fate.

For instance I wonder whether your income has dropped to a level to qualify for a reduction or even an exoneration and if your eye injury could be classed as a disability reinforcing that ?

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F42.xhtml

Bonne chance.

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Thanks for your sympathy and suggestions. No element of back payment just a reassessment of valeur locative.

The forms were filled out with the person in the Hôtel des Impôts so should have been correct, what is really frustrating is that I went there to discuss the form H1 which they had sent me, they agreed that i didnt need to fill it out but encouraged me to do so as they found that I was being assessed as a locaux commercial and habitation would be cheaper, I suppose it would have been but only 36m2 had been declared before (pretty much the space I live in now) and after filling out the H1, and believe me I tried hard to minimise my exposure it came out to around 270m2 IIRC.

Thickness of walls? Sorry but they use the SHOB not the SHON so the habitable area included wall thicknesses, areas under 1.8m high and even the garage.

Paying monthly would be even more painfull as I would have to settle this bill after just paying the taxes foncieres and then start paying straight away in advance towards next years bill.

Looking on le côté positif, I have been getting away with it for years (wasnt that someones signature) albeit without realising, as for what I have to lose by going along and contesting it, - well my taxes foncieres could also go up from €895 to €2530 and they may just correct the bill that I have just paid. If that is the case I cant really odds it but I would rather remain ignorant until I have got over the current shock, and then then the subject of redevance audiovisuelle might just raise its head [:(]

This is why I really would like be sure of the answer to my question before deciding to remove staircases etc, the only informed response so far from Kathy was not encouraging, although thank you very much for replying, even if it wasnt what I wanted to hear [;-)]

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Maybe there is some light [I]

I found this by trawling

Base d'imposition

L'article 1388 du code général des impôts indique que la base d'imposition est égale à 50% de la valeur locative cadastrale.

Well my taxes foncieres have always had a base of €1600 and the valeur locative on this years taxe d'habitation has risen from €1197 to €3200 which would infer that my base fonciere will remain at €1600 or 50% of €3200.

I am bemused that they have come up with exactly the same figure from the info on the H1 if that is indeed what they have done, more likely just trying it on.

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After completing an H1 form last November our taxe foncières base d'imposition increased from 273 (in 2008) to 520 (in 2009), resulting in an increase from 185€ to 357€ (quite a hike but not unexpected and still nothing like what some people are paying).

No doubt, our taxe d'habitation will increase too (we haven't received it yet), although low income household benefit from "allégements". Last year's valeur locative brute was 546 (double the base d'imposition) so I assume this year's will be 1040. Doing a very rough, amateur calculation based on the calculations from last year's bill, I'm expecting our T de H (before allégements) will jump from 107 to around 225+.

I'm surprised your taxe foncières hasn't increased. I would have thought a re-assessment would bring about a change in both taxes.

Do you have a copy of your H1 form? Perhaps if some areas of your house are not habitable you can question whether they should be included.

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I am beginning to think that the valeur locative has been €3200 since 1970 or whenever it was done as the base for TF has always been 1600.

As it was/is a locaux commercial the previous owners being imposable of taxe professionale had only declared one hotel bedroom and the communal bathroom and kitchen as their habitation the rest being commercial and not imposable for TDH.

As I was writing this a neighbour brought me round his TF and TDH bills, he has a plan pied, habitation domestic and his TDH has always been nearly as much as his TF, his base for TF being 50% of the valeaur locative for TDH.

So now I can answer my own question for those like Dog who are also concerned with this.

Filling out a form H1 for improvements to a property will increase the valeaur locative used to calculate the following years TF and TDH (there is a delay of 2, 5 or 15 years for new properties), if the valeur locative goes up by 50% then the TDH will do so likewise but the TF by only 25% as the base used for the calculation is 50% of valeur locative.

In my case it is the removal of tax professional that has brought about the increase, in fact I had been getting away with about €450 every year without knowing it and the kind souls in the Hôtel des impôts did indeed lose my dossier containing the form H1 for me [:D]

Nonetheless knowing now that I have little or nothing to lose I am going to try my luck with them again hoping to reduce the TDH until the apartments are finished. It is not the end of the world and I have got myself out of far worse situations than this before

There are currently no internal walls, plaster on the outside walls, electricity, water, sewage or any sanitary fittings in the main building, if I rip out the two staircases (which would have come out soon anyway) and use the materials hoist and my bosuns chair to access the first and second floors, remove and/or make the storage heaters into chauffage d'appoint I reckon that I may stand a chance, I can always burn the stairs to keep warm[:)].

I will report back on my progress.

Thanks for all the questions and messages of support,

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From the sound of it, you should be entitled to a substantial reduction (allegement) in the TH actually paid. This appears to come through automatically based on the previous year's Declaration des Revenus for income tax. I've had a reduction of around 70% on TH for several years as I've only been drawing part of my personal pension, but still an adequate income. I didn't apply for it - it just turned up (thankfully!). However, no equivalent reduction appears to apply to TF. Worth asking about?

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What is the tie between tax habitation and your personal  tax declaration?C an you indicate if their is a figure that is taken from tax paid  last year hat is taken into consideration for following years habitation that can cause a reduction un the habitation charge.thanks.

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Naturally, in line with the great French tradition, the calculation is fiendishly complicated and way beyond me (No doubt Clair will be able to put it into simple language). However, it's explained in Note 7 on page 3 of your TH form, and there is a table  (Note 10) indicating the ceiling of RFR (Revenu Fiscal de Reference) to receive the reduction.

What I think this all means is:

the reduction applicable is equal to the part of the gross amount of Taxe d'Habitation which exceeds 3.44% of the Revenu Fiscal de Reference (from your income tax advice) reduced by an abatement as shown in the table below (table 10).

Thus, for a couple (2 parts for income tax), provided your joint income is less than 32,791 euros (23133 + 5406 + 4253), and your gross TH is more than 3.44% of your RFR, you should be receiving a reduction (allegement). It's shown on the back of your Td'H Advice about half-way down on the right, "Plafonnement selon le revenu". There are also abatements in column lll of table 10 amounting to 7,918 euros for a couple, but I struggled to understand the application of these - maybe they should be subtracted from RFR before the calculation, but I can't relate that to my own Advice..

Anyway, the good news is that the calculation and reduction should all be automatic, but it's certainly worth checking that you are receiving the reduction.

Bonne Chance!

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Here's a less fiendishly complicated explanation.....[;-)]

Assuming you're taxed as a couple, take your RFR and deduct 7,918€ then multiply the result by 3.44%. That gives you the platform - the maximum TdH you'd have to pay.

There is an additional calculation based on the changes in tax levels between 2000 and 2009 but you can basically ignore it as it'll only make a difference to the platform of around 50€.

 

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[quote user="Ceejay"]Excuse my ignorance on this, but if there is a correlation between RFR and Td'H how is the figure arrived at for non fiscally resident property holders?

[/quote]

The RFR is used to calculate whether you are entitled to any "allégements" on your TDH. Quite simply (as far as I'm aware), if you're not fiscally resident, you're not eligible for any allégements.

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[quote user="kizpip"]Doing a very rough, amateur calculation based on the calculations from last year's bill, I'm expecting our T de H (before allégements) will jump from 107 to around 225+.

[/quote]

Probably of no interest at all to anyone, but I've just received our T de H bill and the tax before allégements comes in at 226€!! Maybe I have an insight into this fiendishly complicated system which I wasn't aware I had!

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RFR = Revenu Fiscal de Référence

It is calculated according to your income and after deduction of allowance:

Taxable income (€2 000 x 12 months = €24 000)

less

10% allowance  (€24 000 x 10 % = €2 400)

= Revenu fiscal de reference (€24 000€ - €2 400 = €21 600)

You will find it printed near the bottom of the first page of your tax bill.

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