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Tax Fonciere (again - sorry)


londoneye
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Hi everyone

I will try to keep this as succinct as possible.

When we purchased our property (small house, two large out-buildings), we were required to complete an H1 form and our tax fonciere increased from around 130 to nearly 500 euros. Admittedly we had gone completely over the top and 'treated' ourselves to an indoor toilet and a shower.

to me however, even taking into account our new luxurious life-style, the increase was far too much. At that point I telephoned the appropriate person and had a conversation with what I can only describe as the most unpleasant official I have ever dealt with, whose only response was - you filled in the form, so there is nothing I can do about it. Anyway, said hideous woman is still the only person available at the relevant office.

Last year we completed a large renovation project, massive barn and one other out-building into seasonal rental properties. Being a good citizen I once more completed the dreaded H1.

Tax fonciere has increased just over 100 euros, now being 600 odd euros.

Something is clearly not right. I've checked with neighbours and they have only had increase of a couple of euros, so it's not an across the board increase.

Is there any way I can tell from the form why the increase. I would love to believe this is the total increase from my latest H1 form and am slightly wary of querying it and then having a further higher demand. But, on the other hand, if this does not even take into account the new H1, then by not querying it I could end up paying more than I should. It's a dilemma. And I am not sure I can face going to see hideous woman.

Any thoughts (apart from the fact that I said I was going to keep this succinct and haven't!).
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I think the French are imaginative and use magical shrunken tape measures when they measure their houses.

I am concidering putting a kitchen or toilet in every room or emptying the entire house on January 1 to  avoid paying this tax.

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I notice on my Taxes Foncieres bill that a Taxe Ordures Menageres (dustbin tax) is now included, some 20% of the total. This used to be charged separately up to 2004. Might be one reason for the earlier increase?

The back of the TF form tells you how to contest the total. We had a guy came round a few years back and camped in the Mairie, available to discuss and review valuations, and to come out and survey if necessary - he's probably who you would need to help contest the rateable value. I would suggest that you ask your local Mairie for help - the Tax office (and presumably hideous woman) only crunch the numbers and send the bills out. Might be worth making sure you're registered to vote in the local elections first - seems to help visibility!

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Thanks but the taxe ordures menageres has always been included in our fonciere.

Actually if this includes the new H1 I am happy with the amount - my huge concern is that this does not include our new H1 and that we will get a bill for a hugely increased amount next year.

Perhaps I should wait for the habitation to arrive, as that should also show an increase I am thinking if the latest H1 has been included into our fonciere.
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As I understand it, this is roughly how it works.

There's a rateable value applied to your property, which is assessed as being the amount of rent you could expect to pay annually for the property concerned.  Many of these values have probably never been updated for years and the act of having improvements done and the eventual submission of an H1, triggers a reassessment.

For the calculation, this rateable value or base is divided by 2 and the applicable % for your area applied. As an example, our base is (roughly) €5k and the % is 25%, so our bill comes out at €625 p.a.  If your tax rate locally is more or less the same, then your new liability of €500 would suggest a base of €4k - probably perfectly reasonable as an amount you would have to pay to rent it.

So, by playing by the rules and making the proper declarations, you take a hit, but that's the way it goes.

The only thing is that (as I understand it) you are exempt from the increase for two calendar years following the date of completion of the works. So, if the work was completed in 2010, you should have no additional liability until 2013, provided that you submitted your H1 within 90 days of completion of those works. If the above applies to you, you should be able to cry foul, but you must still pay the bill and get a rebate if your appeal is upheld.

Hope that helps. 

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Hi

Thanks - we completed work in 2009, and yes we submitted H1 within 90 days of completion of works.

I have to admit that I just don't understand the form (strange how when the amount is very little it doesn't seem important to understand the form but when it increases it does!)

There are so many boxes along the top all with a 'base' below them. If it is the commune base percent then it is 18.33%.
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It really is just catch up.

Sounds like you were literally paying nothing in TF as most of that was for your bins.

I think for what you have said you have now, 600€ sounds OK. I would have been delighted with that amount.

In the county ajoining the one I lived in, there were officers/clerks from the local impot offices going on checking on every house in the villages that were not too far from us and lots of bills increased. Never heard of it in my county but, I won't be surprised if they start doing controles there too.
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[quote user="londoneye"]my huge concern is that this does not include our new H1 and that we will get a bill for a hugely increased amount next year. [/quote]

Easy to check.

Find your 2009 TF bill.  If the base has increased by anything more than a few %, then obviously your H1 has been taken in to account.  But with that sort of increase in your liability, it undoubtedly has.

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Ok, the only box where our base has massively increased - from 702 to 1676 is under the box which says taxe ordures menageres.

Last year the base was 702 across all the boxes; this year the base in all of the boxes is 607 (!) and the base in the menageres is 1676.

Which leaves me even more puzzled.

And we actually have two properties listed on our fonciere and the base for the second property is showing 247 across all of the boxes, as opposed to the 244 that it showed last year.

Very puzzled now - why would the base just increase for the rubbish and not for the rest?

Unless (hideous thought) the base increases for the rubbish straight after you have finished the work, but only for the other categories two years later. Of course I have no idea if/why this would be the case.
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No problem 5-element.

Just been googling like mad and found someone on another site with same situation and now I am convinced that my assumption is correct - which means that I should expect our base to increase after the two year exoneration to match that of the current base for the rubbish collection.

Oh dear (gulp!).

Next question though, if we completed the H1 in July 2009, when is the 2 year exemption calculated from. This is the first year that we have had the new H1 taken into account, so I would assume that the exemption for the 2nd year will be next year, and that the new base will be applied to all other categories in our 2012 bill - does this sound correct, or would it be next year (our 2011 bill).

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[quote user="londoneye"]Next question though, if we completed the H1 in July 2009, when is the 2 year exemption calculated from. [/quote]

Correct.  As previously stated, the exemption is from 1st Jan for 2 yrs after completion of the works.  So for you, that means your increased liability will be from 2012.

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Lovely - thanks everyone - I think anyway I am now somewhat more familiar with the form and workings of such, so in that sense this process has been a good thing.

As ever, good advice from all - I am going to rest on my assumption and not worry for another year or so (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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