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Tax residency - the Dutch!


bixy
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I have just been told for the third time by a Dutch person that if you are Dutch you can choose whether you are taxed in the Netherlands or France, even if you are permanently resident in France. I have said each time that that is not the case, based largely on what I have read on this forum, and that you must make a declaration of your world-wide income in France. I have now been told  this story so often and with such conviction that I am starting to have doubts about what I have previously believed to be the case. Has anyone else heard this and is there any truth in what these Dutch people are saying?

Patrick

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Same here Bixy. Having worked in or had dealings with Fiscs of many countries, i have never come across one which allows the goose to decide who will pluck it. However having worked with the Dutch extensively I know they are always right. So when one tells me that I just shrug and smile. Eventually the French Fisc will wake up I suppose.

JFB

PS: Maybe the Dutch are right as usual.

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[quote user="bixy"]I have just been told for the third time by a Dutch person that if you are Dutch you can choose whether you are taxed in the Netherlands or France, even if you are permanently resident in France. I have said each time that that is not the case, based largely on what I have read on this forum, and that you must make a declaration of your world-wide income in France.[/quote]

You cannot choose.  Being Dutch has nothing to do with it.  Two things are relevant: (1) In which country are you permanently resident?  (2) In which country does the income arise?

If you are resident in one country and the income arises in the other, then (as Betty said) the treaty will decide: you have no choice.  This is true even if you happen to be resident in both countries.

But if you are resident in France it is true that - as you were told - you must make a declaration of your world-wide income in France, even if some of it isn't taxable here.  This is required by French law, not by the treaty.

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Live an let live I say, they will do as they wish to do anyway.

I find forums very special when it comes to subjects like car registration, healthcare, taxation etc.

In my whole working life no-one in the UK has ever asked me if I pay income tax or to whom, ditto in France.

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When one goes out with a mixed group of nationalities for a beer; it has always amazed me how the dutch can magicly get to the back of the queue when it come to pay or they have locked themselves in the tiolet and have had to climb out the window, cutting themselves in the process and retiring to the nearest A&E, etc,etc,etc.

I confess! I did! I did! I cried with happiness when Spain won!

I presume that fiscal matters are similar.

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Many Dutch think they have a right to choose, but only an very small number of Dutch really have this right due to having obtained contradictory rights and obligations in both countries. All the others (>99%) have this right only for 1 year: The fiscal year when moving to- or from France.

Many Dutch however stay in the Netherlands only on paper as this is sufficient to earn rights for a state pension. For each year anyone older than 15 lives in Holland  he or she 'earns' 2% state pension. At 65 this amounts to 100%

Naturally this person will then 'opt' to pay taxes in the Netherlands even when living in France.

The law requires that you actually reside in Holland off course, but many think the Dutch government won't find out.

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We heard this old chestnut when we moved to France, but Bloke still working in Den Haag (he weekends, but not for much longer - hurrah!).  Total nonsense!  Tax is paid in The Netherlands, Dutch tax return has to be done and tax refund comes from the Dutch, French tax return has to be done declaring income earned/tax paid in The Netherlands, plus French income, health insurance paid in The Netherland, then E106 for French cover (but I have my own CV now so not an issue as such).  Not as complicated as it sounds (honest!).

Bloke starting new job in Luxembourg in February, so we'll have to work out how the system works all over again ..... well it keeps you on your toes .......

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Well, it's obvious that different rules apply to the Dutch.

I caught the last in the Oz Clarke and Hugh Dennis series of programmes on the TV yesterday evening. They were travelling around Britain (mostly Wales in this instance) in a Dutch-registered camper van. If that had been French I am sure the holier-than-thou brigade would have posted by now about how illegal it is for British residents to drive French-registered vehicles in UK and there would be total shock and horror at the BBC apparently condoning such a heinous crime (according to their on-line biographies, Oz lives in West London, Hugh in Chichester).

But as the van was Dutch, it's all OK. [geek]

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If you work in Lux and live in France then it's the usual rules.  You pay tax in Lux and then declare it in France as tax paid.

Just to muddy the waters a little there are special rules for 'Fronteliers' which I'm not clear on but these rules give you many of the same benefits that a Lux resident worker would get eg tax relief on childcare and other stuff although much of this was removed in the last budget.

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[quote user="Will"]

Well, it's obvious that different rules apply to the Dutch.

I caught the last in the Oz Clarke and Hugh Dennis series of programmes on the TV yesterday evening. They were travelling around Britain (mostly Wales in this instance) in a Dutch-registered camper van. If that had been French I am sure the holier-than-thou brigade would have posted by now about how illegal it is for British residents to drive French-registered vehicles in UK and there would be total shock and horror at the BBC apparently condoning such a heinous crime (according to their on-line biographies, Oz lives in West London, Hugh in Chichester).

But as the van was Dutch, it's all OK. [geek]

[/quote]

Quite true! In 1964 I bought a standard crash gear box WVolksie one night in a tapa bar in the Plaza Mayor in Madrid for $ 60; drove it around europe and UK for years; no trouble at all; no road tax renewable Green Card magic; and cheap to run too.[:$]

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No Chancer, I wasn't lecturing or questioning these Dutch people. In each case it was a person who had recently settled or was about to settle in france and we were talking about what needed to be done. In any case people will believe what they want to believe. A friend has lived in France for close on 20 years happily believing that he did not need to trouble the tax authorities with the small matter of a declaration.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

You'd better believe it!

Patrick

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[quote user="pachapapa"]

When one goes out with a mixed group of nationalities for a beer; it has always amazed me how the dutch can magicly get to the back of the queue when it come to pay or they have locked themselves in the tiolet and have had to climb out the window, cutting themselves in the process and retiring to the nearest A&E, etc,etc,etc.

I confess! I did! I did! I cried with happiness when Spain won!

I presume that fiscal matters are similar.

[/quote]

 

Its very true the Dutch do know how to save on  shelling out . I learned a lot from them in my caravan touring days . Where I paid on site for for an electric hook up for my lighting fridge etc I learned from the Dutch that I really  needed 2 cables to get the best value from my 2 euros worth of electricity per day  . That way even though I had only paid for one hook up ..if  I plugged a second one  into some other pitch  supply at the same time.  ( Even if I had to unplug some other guys if it was lunch time )  I could run the Tefal fryer. the toaster the mini  grill oven the oil filled radiator to keep the van warm  and perhaps a TV all at the same time .. Why buy and use bottled gas to cook when surrounded by all those electric points ?  Not daft are they ?

  What is it they say about the Dutch when they arrive in France for their holidays and keep the wallet closed tight ... " They bring their own potatoes and even take home the peelings " 

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Well, the Dutch may be careful with money, but they are also very enterprising and hardworking. They manage to turn round old, ruined buildings in no time at all and set up gite and camping businesses that actually make enough money to live on, unlike so many of the Brits, who completely miscalculate and are forced to scuttle off back to the UK. I also find them warm and friendly and entirely non-cliquey, unlike so many of the Brits round here.

It's just a pity they don't understand about tax!

Patrick

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There seems to be some bad feeling here, with Chancer talking about "lecturing and questioning" Dutch people, and Will talking about the "holier-than-thou brigade".  I don't know whether I'm included in that, but I'd just like to point out that all I did was to answer a question.  The OP asked whether a Dutch national has a right to choose in a particular situation, and the answer is "no".  (Betty gave the same answer, by the way, rather more briefly.)

Of course you can always exercise a sort of "choice" by choosing to ignore the law, but I don't think that's what the OP meant.

I'm not sure what the Luxembourg frontalier rules have to do with the original question, which was about a Dutch national resident in France.  But in any case, one of the things those rules state very clearly is that a French resident working in Luxembourg must declare all his income in France, just like any other resident in France - including Dutchmen, Italians, etc.  They even specify the French form numbers 2042 and 2047 which we all know and love.

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