Finding a fosse in your drive!!!

[tuppence]

Hi,

Just had an awful shock!!  Toilet blocked yesterday a.m., so as we couldn't unblock it we decided to look under some of the manhole covers secreted away in my driveway. Most were soak aways for rain water, but lo and behold just outside my back door, underneath where I park the car, there was a (probably) fairly full fosse[+o(]. Shock horror! I bought the house 2 years ago "tout a l'egout", but it appears that although the majority of houses have main drains in my road, a lot of them still use their fosse septique as well. I wonder if I need to talk to my estate agent about this as I specifically requested a mains drains water system. I wonder how many other people have had this happen to them when buying their homes. And I still pay rather large water bills too![:@] Adding insult to injury. I now have to get the damn thing emptied at a cost and Lord knows how I will get on if some jobsworth comes to see if I have one that works properly (and legally).[6]

tuppence 

[sid]

Hi Tuppence

Have you managed to clear the blockage? Have you ascertained that the fosse is still in use? It's normal for it to appear fairly full, usually with a rather nice crust on the surface!! [:-))]

This doesn't mean that it has to be emptied; it's quite normal but if your WC empties into the fosse you do need to be adding the enzyme treatment (Tarax, Septifosse, Eparcyl etc).

Good luck

Sid

[tuppence]

Hello Sid,

Toilet OK this morning but "fosse" still looking yuk (no crust). What has made me really angry is the fact that I have lived here for 2 years not knowing that there was one there[8-)],  At this point I'm fairly certain that the loo does empty into this fosse, but on the basis that it hasn't been emptied since lord knows when, it is being emptied ASAP. Told it will probably cost around 80€. Hopefully it probably won't need doing again for about 10 years as there is only me here. Enzyme treatment being purchased very soon, thanks for that!

tuppence

[krusty]

I do not think you will get away with 10 years , I think the rule is every 4 years .......... I am sure someone will advise the correct number of years.

[Joy1]

Hi Tuppance. Are you sure that it is a fosse and not a chamber with a pump to push the waste up to the mains sewer?? Only asking as this is the system we have just had installed instead of the fosse. We were told we had to connect to the mains but as our house is below the level of the mians on the road we have just had the new system installed today with a working pump- woohoo I can now use bleach in my toilet!! Perhaps your pump has got blocked and the system has backed up?? You could try asking you neighbours to see if anyone knows- or look for a power connection. Joy

[Gemonimo]

€80?  You really are lucky.  I paid €160 here in the south west to empty a full/ blocked fosse!

[pachapapa]

[quote user="krusty"]I do not think you will get away with 10 years , I think the rule is every 4 years .......... I am sure someone will advise the correct number of years.[/quote]

No fixed time limit for emptying of "fosse toutes eaux"; required when "boues" reach 50% of the height of the liquid in the "fosse".

The penultimate poster may be vindicated in the estimation of 10 years.[:)]

[sid]

I agree. No point in emptying if it's not necessary. I understand that it can cost a lot more than 80€ though. Maybe that was in the days of getting a local farmer to do it. Environmental controls mean that you shouldn't do that now, it should be disposed of properly and I think it may cost upwards of 300€.

Sid

[krusty]

Now realize where I got the 4 years from , it is the inspection period ...........another expense you have to allow for.

[nectarine]

Fosses in odd places ... we planned to build a garage on a square of hardstanding where there was once a barn. Until we found out that the hard0standing was, in fact, a thin concrete covering with a (covered by earth and leaves) concrete cover which, when removed, shows a deep pit underneath. I've pushed a pole in and reached the bottom at four feet. Apparently it's where the cow slurry used to drain into but we have to fill it as it is obviously unsafe to walk on as it is now cracking up, and we certainly couldn't park our cars on it.

[Jay]

[quote user="krusty"]

Now realize where I got the 4 years from , it is the inspection period ...........another expense you have to allow for.

[/quote]

We had a recent inspection and were told the fosse must be emptied every 4 years (maximum). The inspector said that when she came for her next visit she wanted to see a receipt from a registered contractor. We were also told the price at the moment was in the region of 140€ (for a 3000li fosse), ours is 5000li so I expect we will pay a little more.

[Maricopa]

200€ here to empty fosse.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="krusty"]

Now realize where I got the 4 years from , it is the inspection period ...........another expense you have to allow for.

[/quote]

Not entirely in agreement with you on that,sir.

MINISTÈRE DE L’ÉCOLOGIE, DE L’ÉNERGIE, DU DÉVELOPPEMENT
DURABLE ET DE LA MER, EN CHARGE
DES TECHNOLOGIES VERTES ET DES NÉGOCIATIONS SUR LE CLIMAT
Arrêté du 7 septembre 2009 relatif aux modalités de l’exécution
de la mission de contrôle des installations d’assainissement non collectif
NOR : DEVO0920064A

Art. 8. − La commune précise, dans son règlement de service, les modalités de mise en oeuvre de sa
mission de contrôle, notamment :
a) La périodicité des contrôles ;
b) Les modalités d’information du propriétaire de l’immeuble ou, le cas échéant, de l’occupant de
l’immeuble ;
c) Les documents à fournir pour la réalisation du contrôle ;
d) Le montant de la redevance du contrôle et ses modalités de recouvrement.

Art. 9. − Toute opération de contrôle ou de vérification technique de la conception, de l’implantation et de
la bonne exécution ou de vérification périodique de bon fonctionnement des installations d’assainissement non
collectif, réalisée par la commune avant la publication du présent arrêté, est considérée comme répondant à la
mission de contrôle au sens de l’article L. 2224-8 du code général des collectivités territoriales.

Art. 10. − Dans le cas où la commune n’a pas décidé de prendre en charge l’entretien des installations
d’assainissement non collectif, la mission de contrôle comprend :
– la vérification de la réalisation périodique des vidanges, sur la base des bordereaux de suivi des matières
de vidange ;
– la vérification périodique de l’entretien du bac dégraisseur, le cas échéant.

[woody234]

is there a difference between a fosse which gets emptied every 4 years and a  fosse that drains waste into the garden using pipes and chambers which does not need emptying

[pachapapa]

The general principles of "vidange" etc are covered in the Arrèté of 7th Oct 2009.

It should be noted that the particular hydrogeological parameters associated with the particular location will indubitably result in differences between communal interpretation and application.

Aggravated,of course, by a singular lack of commonsense and competence by french communal authorities.[:P]

MINISTÈRE DE L’ÉCOLOGIE, DE L’ÉNERGIE, DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DURABLE ET DE LA MER, EN CHARGE DES TECHNOLOGIES VERTES ET DES NÉGOCIATIONS SUR LE CLIMAT

Arrêté du 7 septembre 2009 fixant les prescriptions techniques applicables aux installations d’assainissement non collectif recevant une charge brute de pollution organique inférieure

ou égale à 1,2 kg/j de DBO5 NOR : DEVO0809422A

Section 4

Entretien et élimination des sous-produits et matières de vidange d’assainissement non collectif

Art. 15. − Les installations d’assainissement non collectif sont entretenues régulièrement par le propriétaire de l’immeuble et vidangées par des personnes agréées par le préfet selon des modalités fixées par arrêté des ministres chargés de l’intérieur, de la santé, de l’environnement et du logement, de manière à assurer :

– leur bon fonctionnement et leur bon état, notamment celui des dispositifs de ventilation et, dans le cas où la filière le prévoit, des dispositifs de dégraissage ;

– le bon écoulement et la bonne distribution des eaux usées prétraitées jusqu’au dispositif de traitement ;

– l’accumulation normale des boues et des flottants et leur évacuation.

Les installations doivent être vérifiées et entretenues aussi souvent que nécessaire.

La périodicité de vidange de la fosse toutes eaux doit être adaptée en fonction de la hauteur de boues, qui ne doit pas dépasser 50 % du volume utile.

Les installations, les boîtes de branchement et d’inspection doivent être fermées en permanence et accessibles pour assurer leur entretien et leur contrôle.

Les conditions d’entretien sont mentionnées dans le guide d’utilisation prévu à l’article 16.

Art. 16. − L’installation, l’entretien et la vidange des dispositifs constituant l’installation d’assainissement non collectif se font conformément au guide d’utilisation rédigé en français et remis au propriétaire de l’installation lors de la réalisation ou réhabilitation de l’installation d’assainissement non collectif. Celui-ci décrit le type d’installation, précise les conditions de mise en oeuvre, de fonctionnement et d’entretien, sous forme d’une fiche technique et expose les garanties.

Il comporte au moins les indications suivantes :

– la description de tout ou partie de l’installation, son principe et les modalités de son fonctionnement ;

– les paramètres de dimensionnement, pour atteindre les performances attendues ;

– les instructions de pose et de raccordement ;

– la production de boues ;

– les prescriptions d’entretien, de vidange et de maintenance, notamment la fréquence ;

– les performances garanties et leurs conditions de pérennité ;

– la disponibilité ou non de pièces détachées ;

– la consommation électrique et le niveau de bruit, le cas échéant ;

– la possibilité de recyclage des éléments de l’installation en fin de vie ;

– une partie réservée à l’entretien et à la vidange permettant d’inscrire la date, la nature des prestations ainsi que le nom de la personne agréée.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Jay"][quote user="krusty"]

Now realize where I got the 4 years from , it is the inspection period ...........another expense you have to allow for.

[/quote]

We had a recent inspection and were told the fosse must be emptied every 4 years (maximum). The inspector said that when she came for her next visit she wanted to see a receipt from a registered contractor. We were also told the price at the moment was in the region of 140€ (for a 3000li fosse), ours is 5000li so I expect we will pay a little more.
[/quote]

The "recent" inspection may have been prior to the signing of the NEW measures post the publishing in the Journel Officiel.

An arrèté in france is identified by the date of signature, the assainissement mesures became APPLICABLE on the date of publication in the JO; this is not always the case.

The Circulars regarding the application of the measures are anticipated for MARCH 2010.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="woody234"]is there a difference between a fosse which gets emptied every 4 years and a  fosse that drains waste into the garden using pipes and chambers which does not need emptying
[/quote]

There is no such thing as a fosse that does not need emptying!!!!!!

[britgirl]

Yep, that's true.

When we bought our house, we were told that the fosse would never need emptying. Naively we believed that, even tho' there were strange noises when flushing the loo.

One day the contents of the bath (upstairs) flooded the downstairs via the downstairs loo.[+o(] Thankfully it was just bath water.

Next problem was to find the fosse, which involved digging several holes until we found the inspection hatches, and yes it was full to the top. A  phone call to a local firm and everything was sorted out quickly. It cost us 140 euros, with an official receipt, which I think was money well spent.

When I sold the house last year , having the certificate was one less thing to worry about.

 

[tuppence]

Just a quick date on the 'fosse' problem. It has just been emptied at a cost of 65€, cheap at half the price!! It seems that one of the earlier posters was correct insomuch as it appeared to be an expansion tank of sorts. It doesn't leak and there are no pipes leading from it, only the one into it from the loo. Now that the blockage has been removed, all should run well with the help of some Eparcyl each week. Or the guy said it should[:D].

Many thanks to all who answered my original post, where would I be without this Forum!!

tuppence

[Jo]

[quote user="tuppence"] where would I be without this Forum!!

tuppence

[/quote]

Knee deep in guano?

[pachapapa]

An old system based on seperation of eaux usées ( loo) and eaux grises (bath,shower,kitchen,etc).

You state there is no pipe out and the available capacity will be occupied by water from the flushing of the loo.

In olden times this problem was solved "partially" by the male members of the household ziziing in the garden.

The situation was further ameliorated by knocking holes in the bottom of the "fosse".

So if your total inflow is incommensurate with the volumetric capacity that will be the reason.

[Patf]

ppp - I think you've just described our system, complete with holes. And they want us to replace it!

[mayennesat]

Info for all with regards to the new French order NOR : DEVO0809422A , which includes the micro station d'epuration.

For 18 months we have had a new Uni small waste treatment plant purchased from the UK waiting to be installed here at Vauce but Spanc and DDAS here in Mayenne refused to allow it for "non conformity". The system has its CE certificate and EN 12566-3 tests fully completed and passed with flying colours.

Because of this constant refusal no matter what proof was given to them of its conformity within Europe, we actioned a complaint against them using Solvit UK and Solvit France and with their considerable amount of hard work, we have forced the change noted below from Solvit. If anyone wishes a French and or English copy of the order contact us and we will email or post out to them. No huge filter bed required now. We will soon be on their success page, http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/success/index_en.htm

Quote from Solvit to us:

"As you know, we submitted your case on SOLVIT a while ago but unfortunately, it has taken over the 10 weeks deadline to get an answer from the French authorities.  This is mainly because of the complex nature of the case and the need for the French SOLVIT Centre to get an extension of the 10 weeks. We have got what I am sure you will agree, is  very good news. The French have agreed to accept the products with EN 12566-3 standard and there is therefore now no need to comply with French national standard.  However, because of the need to conform with environmental protection, the French have proposed a new simplified procedure to address this. They have passed a new law which came into force on 9th October and this will make the marketing and installation of your product much easier for your company. The European Commission has approved this new simplified procedure. The French SOLVIT  (who has been very supportive in pursuing our complaint) has delayed proposing a solution to our case until concrete measures were put in place. Their proposed solution is in the email below and a copy of the French decree is attached for information.

[Following detailed opinions, the French authorities have significantly modified their text in order to provide a simplified authorisation procedure for authorising the installation of sewage systems with products that are lawfully produced or marketed in another Member State or which are in compliance with harmonised standards, like EN 12566-3. The authorisation procedure is necessary for environmental protection and there are proposals for a new law to address this situation. the text modifying the previous procedure came into force the 9th of October. "

[pachapapa]

This thread is I believe directed towards considerations of a pre-treatment element of a system of assainissement non collective.

Whereas your µStep appears to be an element of treatment.

Notwithstanding the manifestations of Solvit are indubitably of interest.

I am curious as to the representations made on your behalf in respect of your proposed installation and in particular annexe 5 of the relevant arrêté.

 

Article Annexe 5

ÉLÉMENTS CONSTITUTIFS DU DOSSIER
DE DEMANDE D'AGRÉMENT DES DISPOSITIFS DE TRAITEMENT

CONTENU DU DOSSIER	PROCÉDURE D'ÉVALUATION sur plate-forme	PROCÉDURE D'ÉVALUATION simplifiée
L'identité du demandeur et la dénomination commerciale réservée à l'objet de la demande.	X	X
Les réglementations et normes auxquelles l'installation ou ces dispositifs sont conformes, les rapports d'essais réalisés et le certificat de conformité obtenu, le cas échéant, dans un Etat membre, dans un autre Etat signataire de l'accord sur l'EEE ou en Turquie, la procédure d'évaluation ainsi que toute autre information que le demandeur juge utile à l'instruction de sa demande, afin de tenir compte des contrôles déjà effectués et des approbations déjà délivrées dans un Etat membre, dans un autre Etat signataire de l'accord sur l'EEE ou en Turquie.		X
Le rapport d'essai du marquage CE, le cas échéant, s'il a été obtenu, précisant notamment les modalités de réalisation des essais et tous les résultats obtenus en entrée et sortie du dispositif de traitement.	X	X
Les spécifications relatives à la conception de l'installation et aux procédés ainsi qu'un jeu complet de schémas et de justifications du dimensionnement. Les informations complètes relatives au transport, à l'installation, à l'exploitation et aux spécifications de maintenance de l'installation doivent également être fournies.	X	X
La règle d'extrapolation aux installations de capacités supérieures ou inférieures à celles de l'installation de base et ses justifications.	X	X
Les informations relatives à la sécurité mécanique, électrique et structurelle de l'installation à soumettre à l'essai.	X	X
La description du processus de traçabilité des dispositifs et des composants de l'installation.	X	X
Les documents destinés à l'usager rédigés en français, notamment le guide d'utilisation prévu à l'article 16 du présent arrêté.	X	X

Les documents destinés à l'usager doivent comporter les pièces suivantes :

― une description de tout ou partie de l'installation, son principe et les modalités de pose (fondations, remblayage, branchements électriques éventuels, ventilation et/ou évacuation des gaz ou odeurs, accessibilité des regards d'entretien et armoire de commande/contrôle, etc.) et de fonctionnement ;

― les règles du dimensionnement des différents éléments de l'installation en fonction des caractéristiques de l'habitation et/ou du nombre d'usagers desservis ;

― les instructions de pose et de raccordement sous forme d'un guide de mise en œuvre de l'installation qui a pour objectif une mise en place adéquate de l'installation et/ou de ses dispositifs (description des contraintes d'installation liées à la topographie et à la nature du terrain ainsi qu'aux modes d'alimentation des eaux usées et d'évacuation des effluents et des gaz ou odeurs émis) ;
― la référence aux normes utilisées dans la construction pour les matériaux ;

― les réglages au démarrage, à intervalles réguliers et lors d'une utilisation par intermittence ;

― les prescriptions d'entretien, de renouvellement du matériel et/ou des matériaux, de vidange et de maintenance, notamment la fréquence et les procédures à suivre en cas de dysfonctionnement ; dans le cas d'une évacuation par infiltration dans le sol, les précautions à prendre pour éviter son colmatage doivent être précisées ;

― les performances garanties ;

― le niveau sonore ;

― les dispositifs de contrôle et de surveillance ;

― le cas échéant, les garanties sur les dispositifs et les équipements électromécaniques selon qu'il est souscrit ou non un contrat d'entretien en précisant son coût et la fréquence des visites ainsi que les modalités des contrats d'assurance souscrits, le cas échéant, sur le non-respect des performances ;

― le cas échéant, les modèles des contrats d'entretien et d'assurance ;

― un protocole de maintenance le plus précis possible avec indication des pièces d'usure et des durées au bout desquelles elles doivent être remplacées avant de nuire à la fiabilité des performances du dispositif et/ou de l'installation ainsi que leur disponibilité (délai de fourniture et/ou remplacement, service après-vente le cas échéant) ; les précautions nécessaires afin de ne pas altérer ou détruire des éléments de l'installation devront aussi être précisées ainsi que la destination des pièces usagées afin de réduire autant que possible les nuisances à l'environnement ;

― le cas échéant, la consommation électrique journalière (puissance installée et temps de fonctionnement quotidien du ou des équipements électromécaniques) et la puissance de niveau sonore émise avec un élément de comparaison par rapport à des équipements ménagers usuels ;

― le carnet d'entretien ou guide d'exploitation par le fabricant sur lequel l'acquéreur pourra consigner toute remarque concernant le fonctionnement de l'installation et les vidanges (indication sur la production et la vidange des boues au regard des capacités de stockage et des concentrations qu'elles peuvent raisonnablement atteindre ; la façon de procéder à la vidange sans nuire aux performances devra également être renseignée ainsi que la destination et le devenir des boues). Si l'installation comporte un dégrilleur, le fabricant doit également préciser la façon de le nettoyer sans nuire au fonctionnement et sans mettre en danger la personne qui réalise cette opération ;

― des informations sur la manière d'accéder et de procéder à un prélèvement d'échantillon représentatif de l'effluent traité en toute sécurité et sans nuire au fonctionnement de l'installation ;

― un rappel précisant que l'installation est destinée à traiter des effluents à usage domestique et une liste des principaux produits susceptibles d'affecter les performances épuratoires de l'installation ;

― une analyse du cycle de vie au regard du développement durable (consommation énergétique, possibilité de recyclage des éléments de l'installation en fin de vie, production des boues) et le coût approximatif de l'installation sur quinze ans (investissement, entretien, exploitation).

I would just add that the directives for the application of the arrêté are not anticipated to be available before march 2010, all being well.

[mayennesat]

Hello, 

Solvit in France who actually had to bear the brunt of dealing with the problem at the commission, are the experts in it all.

 

Below is another communication from Solvit UK. Other than that, I cannot say. We will see which way the French jump once Spanc gets our application again.

 

"For your information, the new order came into force on October 9th 2009, so the legal grounds for promoting and selling the product in France have been already established.

 

In my opinion, it is important to bear in mind the fact that the product already carries the EN mark, which leads it right to the application of the "simplified system assessment procedure". This reflects the major achievement of our engagement, that rather than having to go through the full certification process with the French authorities, French authorities are now obliged to apply a simplified testing procedure for products already bearing the EN mark in order to address their environmental  concerns. You will find the respective details in Article 8 and Annex 3 of the order.

When looking at Article 9 one can conclude that it can actually take up to six months to get the final approval for the treatment advice from the French ministries. This would state another reason for getting quickly into the approval procedure, so French ministries hopefully might not have to exploit the full maximum time frame. "

 

With regard to Annex 5, the manufactureres of the system in Ireland are dealing with that although quite a lot of it is on the CE certificate and EN12566-3 test papers. Ireland already have the official Commission translation from French to English which is copied here below.

 

Annex 5: Minimum elements to be included in the technical report

The notified body’s technical report must be written in French and contain at least the following information:

·        The critical analysis of the documents provided by the petitioner, in terms of installation, operation, equipment reliability and results.

·        The system start-up time (value X) and supporting documents if applicable;

·        The record of investigations comprising:

o       the detailed description of the system tested including information relating to the daily rated load, the daily rated hydraulic flow and the characteristics of the building to be served (number of main rooms);

o       the conditions for installation of the system during testing;

o       the verification of the compliance of the design of the system and its components in relation to the specifications supplied by the manufacturer;

o       an estimation of the noise level;

o       the results obtained during the test, all the values coming into the system, after the treatment phases and leaving the system in relation to concentrations, loads and efficiency obtained and the average values, the standard deviations of the concentrations and efficiency for the rated load and for non-rated loads in the form of a summary table giving the date and the test results for the average sample over 24 hours;

o        the description of maintenance operations performed and repairs carried out during the test period, including detailed information about sludge production and the sludge disposal intervals in relation to the volumes of the storage structures and the average concentration measured using 2 samples taken after homogenisation. Sludge production will also be compared to the mass of COD treated during the test period. If intermediate extraction was necessary during testing, the concentrations and volumes extracted shall be measured and added to the quantities still in the devices at the end of testing;

o       an estimate of the electrical energy consumed during the test period compared with the daily mass of COD treated for each programme sequence;

o       a description of any physical or environmental problems that may arise during the test period; deviations from the manufacturer’s maintenance instructions must be recorded in this section;

o       information relating to any physical damage to the system that may occur during the test period, e.g. clogging, sludge loss, corrosion, etc.;

o       information about any deviation from the test procedure;

o       an analysis of the 15-year system costs (investment, maintenance, running costs) using data supplied by the manufacturer;

·        a table or grid clearly indicating the dimensions of the structures (volumes, surface area, power, efficiency, etc.) according to the rated load to be treated for all the components making up a type of production.