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New tax on non resident home owners


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[quote user="5-element"]

Are you sure Pat???

If I did that, my annual figure would be...19,032 euros!!! Can't be right, surely!

[/quote]

Looks like the Dordogne and Brittany will soon be empty [;-)]   Seriously there's a lot of guessing going on a nobody has yet got the full facts and figures, So until the government process has run it's course and they actually tell us how much we will be liable for , I think we should all chill out? and start saving [:D]

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I have a theory that the French political mindset is that the French government wish to encourage wealthy second home owners, wealthy retirees and new wealthy investor residents to France.

However, they want to discourage lower income individuals, such as the average foreign early retiree, as they believe they could become a burden on the French health and social security system and buy property in a range that competes with the average French buyer, driving up prices.

The evidence being that in addition to the French health care reforms impacting Brit early retirees, wealth tax is being reduced, by the threshold increasing from euros 800,000 to euros 1.3 million, so that wealthy second home owners in France with houses valued over a million euros will save more in wealth tax than they will have to pay with the new additional property tax. Part of the gap being made up by taxing all foreign second home owners, the vast majority of whom will have fairly modest maison secondaires and as a result see their property taxes increase substantively.
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Looks like the Dordogne and Brittany will soon be empty Wink [;-)] 

 Seriously there's a lot of guessing going on a nobody has yet got the

full facts and figures, So until the government process has run it's

course and they actually tell us how much we will be liable for , I

think we should all chill out? and start saving Big Smile [:D]

I'm with you on this one Nick P , whatever we all think it is not for us to make the decision and we can but wait and see.

5e thanks for posting the link to the French article.

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[quote user="5-element"]

Are you sure Pat???

If I did that, my annual figure would be...19,032 euros!!! Can't be right, surely

[/quote]

No, sorry[:$]

You have to divide the monthly figure by 5 then multiply by 12! (ie 20% of the rental value.)

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[quote user="5-element"]

And here is a map of the all the "maisons secondaires" in France (there were around 3,1 million in 2007,  not differentiating between foreign-owned and French-owned):

http://www.journaldunet.com/economie/magazine/dossier/les-cartogrammes-des-regions-de-france-selon-l-economie/nombre-de-residences-secondaires.shtml

[/quote]I'm being super-dim this morning but all I see is a map with the regions in different colours.  I can't find any figures on that site.  Duh......
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[quote user="Sprogster"]I have a theory that - they want to discourage lower income individuals, . . . .
a burden on the French health and social security system and buy property in a range that competes with the average French buyer

by taxing all foreign second home owners, the vast majority of whom will have fairly modest maison secondaires and as a result see their property taxes increase substantively.[/quote]

Self defeating then? since surely the maison secondaire owners are registered elsewhere for health and social security they're least likely to be part of a burden?
I'm sure it will discourage some from staying, but since these are not immobile, they will not be making up any tax shortfall from the other higher threshold? taking their recovered investment with them.

I'm reminded of the quote ''Very Interesting - but stupid''

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Nomoss

In past days when I owned a boat, as a French resident along with French citizens I paid the Droit de Passeport, which was for navigating French waters.

At the time, a British resident with a boat moored in France, was not subject to this payment.

My point was that as some boats are used as holiday homes they may well fall into the same category as houses.

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[quote user="NickP"][quote user="5-element"]

Are you sure Pat???

If I did that, my annual figure would be...19,032 euros!!! Can't be right, surely!

[/quote]

Looks like the Dordogne and Brittany will soon be empty [;-)]   Seriously there's a lot of guessing going on a nobody has yet got the full facts and figures, So until the government process has run it's course and they actually tell us how much we will be liable for , I think we should all chill out? and start saving [:D]

[/quote]Excellent advice. I suspect that a lot of people will grit their teeth and pay the new tax despite the pain. Apart from anything else it won't be so easy for them to get rid of the properties in the present economic climate.
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[quote user="cooperlola"]I'm being super-dim this morning but all I see is a map with the regions in different colours.  I can't find any figures on that site.  Duh......[/quote]

You are not dim at all Coops, all the map does is show the different regions in different colours, without figures. The only clue is next to the map:

L'Insee dénombrait en 2007 près de 3,1 millions de résidences secondaires en France. Ce sont les régions ensoleillées comme PACA ou Languedoc-Roussillon qui attirent le plus, mais la façade Atlantique tire très bien son épingle du jeu. En revanche la Lorraine et l'Alsace sont particulièrement boudées.

Les trois premières régions : Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Rhône-Alpes, Languedoc-Roussillon

Les trois dernières régions : Lorraine, Champagne-Ardenne, Alsace

Moyenne des régions : 139 470 résidences

Although "la facade Atlantique" is mentioned as doing well, there is no other reference to it.

This may well be because this French site is focussed on French residences secondaires mainly, or at least, does not differentiate between French-owned, and "other"-owned.

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[quote user="Rabbie"][quote user="NickP"][quote user="5-element"]

Are you sure Pat???

If I did that, my annual figure would be...19,032 euros!!! Can't be right, surely!

[/quote]

Looks like the Dordogne and Brittany will soon be empty [;-)]   Seriously there's a lot of guessing going on a nobody has yet got the full facts and figures, So until the government process has run it's course and they actually tell us how much we will be liable for , I think we should all chill out? and start saving [:D]

[/quote]Excellent advice. I suspect that a lot of people will grit their teeth and pay the new tax despite the pain. Apart from anything else it won't be so easy for them to get rid of the properties in the present economic climate.[/quote]

Totally agree.  However, in the "present economic climate", it's a job to know where else you could put your money.....

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[quote user="5-element"]

The French press has some interesting articles on the topic. For those who read French, the following article questions both the validity and wisdom of such a measure:  "une nouvelle mauvaise idée"

http://www.lecri.fr/2011/05/10/la-taxation-de-la-residence-secondaire-des-etrangers/23432         [/quote]

Fascinating, 5-element.  The wirter fairly tears the idea to shreds, doesn't he?

 

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[quote user="5-element"]

The French press has some interesting articles on the topic. For those who read French, the following article questions both the validity and wisdom of such a measure:  "une nouvelle mauvaise idée"

http://www.lecri.fr/2011/05/10/la-taxation-de-la-residence-secondaire-des-etrangers/23432         [/quote]

Fascinating, 5-element.  The writer fairly tears the idea to shreds, doesn't he?

 

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Thanks 5-E.  Phew.

Pity though, because it would be interesting to see what the spread is.  Certainly the Vendee coast is very popular as a second home area for the better off around here - close enough, warmer etc etc, whilst most of the second homes in this area seem to be owned by Parisiens.  I don't know of any Brits near me who don't live and/or work around here (but then I don't know that many anyway).

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This is turning into a fascinating area of research! Here, you get many facts and figures about what percentages of which foreigners have their second home where in France - this study focusses more on Aquitaine, but has also various tables that are more general:

http://www.tourisme-aquitaine.fr/upload/Residences_secondaires_des_etrangers.pdf

Some very interesting general figures (unfortunately, they date back to 2004)

Some are very detailed:

for instance, 66,4% of second home owners of the Médoc beaches are German.

23,8% of second home owners around the Arcachon bassin are British.

As for the Périgord generally, we do know there are loads of Brits, but it's broken down further by area!

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Nomoss writes

" Almost everyone "unofficially" lets out their place to friends and family. Of course.you don't do you ? .

Why do some people think those of us who have a second home in France HAVE to be on the fiddle with their taxes ?

In reply to your question Of course you do don't you .... No I bl***y well dont !
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[quote user="Frederick"]Nomoss writes " Almost everyone "unofficially" lets out their place to friends and family. Of course.you don't do you ? . Why do some people think those of us who have a second home in France HAVE to be on the fiddle with their taxes ? In reply to your question Of course you do don't you .... No I bl***y well dont ![/quote]

Nor do I.  No-one stays in our house unless we are there, which means they are always our guests. This goes for most of  the second-home owners I know personally. When we are here it's our home and I don't let out my home to other people.

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[quote user="Patf"][quote user="5-element"]Are you sure Pat???

If I did that, my annual figure would be...19,032 euros!!! Can't be right, surely[/quote]

No, sorry[:$]

You have to divide the monthly figure by 5 then multiply by 12! (ie 20% of the rental value.)[/quote]

Sorry Pat, but I think that you are mistaken.

The valeur locative brut which is shown on the TdH form is an annual figure. It is (deliberately) somewhat less than the actual annual rental value, but rather more than the monthly rental. Our "valeur locative brut" is over four times the monthly rent that we could achieve in a long-term unfurnished rental. The calculation for the proposed new tax, as noted in the govt's own press release posted earlier, is simply 20% of the base figure on your TdH form.

Regards

Pickles

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Could be Pickles, but I was using the figure on the back of the TF form, not the TdH, which as you say, is higher (I think an annual average for the commune.)

I was using the explanation given on another forum, which uses the Foncière figure not the Habitation. Which is correct?

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[quote user="Patf"]Could be Pickles, but I was using the figure on the back of the TF form, not the TdH, which as you say, is higher (I think an annual average for the commune.)

I was using the explanation given on another forum, which uses the Foncière figure not the Habitation. Which is correct?[/quote]

The "base" figure in the TF is half of the "valeur locative brut" on the TdH, and is explained in the accompanying notes. Ignore the "moyenne" values, which, as you say, are averages for the commune.

Regards

Pickles

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Whilst commentators have said that the new tax will simply double the amount of the “taxe d’habitation” due, they have forgotten that the existing cadastral values date back from the 1970s and are being revised. Therefore, the revised values will be significantly higher than the existing ones
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On the basis described above our new tax would be €1000 per year.   We're already paying €2000 pa TdH and TF.

Over the last four years we've faced:

1)   Change to health regime - I now can't come and live here permanently because I have a (relatively minor) medical condition

2)   Collapse in the £

3)   Ever increasing inflation rate,  worse in Britain but noticeable here

4)   Reduction in income due to low interest rates

5)   This new tax.

Coupled with the recent discovery of what is going to be a ruinously expensive problem with our barn roof this looks as though it may well be the end of our French property owning period.

That is if we can ever sell it......

Which just shows that however careful you are,  however much you try and save,  however much you put aside,   governments (and indeed events dear boy,  events) can just come along and say "Thank you Martin,  that will be another £900 per year,  oh and by the way we're letting inflation rip and keeping interest rates low" and there's nothing you can do.   You expect the odd set back,  the odd bad year,   but when five things come in a relatively short span then maybe it's time to stop trying....

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Martin did you only buy four years ago?

I only ask I have always said a few things on here over the years. One was  that one should never to depend on exchange rates, their fluctuations can be terrible, that applies to us too, living in the UK now with french income. Seondly that local taxes in France are often high.

And then there is the CMU. I still remember the first time someone told someone on here told someone else they could apply for the CMU. Put my hackles up, it did, worse than that I was enraged about the very idea. In fact I had to look it up and lo and behold it was true and I was shocked.

If you wonder why I was so angry, well it was because something very 'good' had happened in France in 2000 and that was that people in dire straights would be covered by the health service. It was no longer just for those working or retired. What joy it was to me. Being a simple soul I hadn't realised that people, could come in from other countries and pay little or nothing and get health care from then on after no residency to speak of. It used to be very very expensive to join the CPAM when not in the system, hence the poor could not do it.

Now they are closing what I consider a loophole and from my point of view it is a good thing. Ofcourse I was in France a long time and I 'cared' about where I lived so my views are clouded by living a 'different' life. I'm sure that you and other posters views will be that the new rules are unfair, mine are from a completely different angle and I am glad of the changes to the CMU.

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No,   I probably didn't make myself sufficiently clear.   We bought in 1998.

What I meant was that a fairly benign situation has changed rapidly in the last four years.   Had we not spent too much time dawdling as to whether to make the break with Britain we could have legitimately "got in",  now we can't.   We had chosen the house (a small holding in fact) on the basis that we would eventually move permanently,   and now we can't it's suddenly looking too big and too much responsibility if it's just a "holiday" home.

Indeed,   I can remember the £ = FF13,   then brought low in the 1970s (£ = FF8) by the same financially incontinent policies pursued in Britain as are being pursued now.   That's what worries me.   Last time we had North Sea Oil to give us a respite,   this time there is nothing.

We exchanged £ for FF in 1996/97 to buy this place (couldn't have timed it worse) as by the time we actually bought the £ had (surprisingly) improved,   all that talk of Prudence and Medium Term Economic Strategies.  

So I'm an old hand at exchange rates and making a hash of them.   But no - I don't consider the health changes "unfair" as such,   but it seems incredible that there is NO way that I can cover my health (even for example paying a lump sum into some sort of bond to cover treatment if they won't "insure" me) so that I can exercise the right that I (and others) thought we had to reside anywhere in the EU.  

The point I was trying to make is that one doesn't expect FIVE separate disasters to befall,  all at the same time.   (Six if you count the barn roof).    Exchange rates come and go,   but what one doesn't expect is the sort of financial incontinence we are seeing from Mervyn King carry on for so long,  and with no end in sight.   How high does inflation have to go before he acts?     We were originally told that QE would be wound back - one never hears that now (and somehow I knew we never would when it was announced).

I wish they'd tighten up the health rules similarly in Britain I have to say....

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