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This is just plain wrong. It is wrong on so many levels.


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Fortunately, I have no skin in the immigration situation that is affecting the UK right now, although I do believe it is not a recent problem but one that has been an issue for decades.  I'm more concerned what France and Brussels action is to halt this unsustainable influx of undocumented emigrants into the countries of the EU.

If the people of the UK are serious  and genuinely want a halt in this situation, then they will have to be prepared to suffer some inconveniences. As has been reported in the media and on TV, the eastern states of the EU are in the process or have already completed  erecting physical barriers along their borders which I believe are patrolled by those nations armed forces.

The south coast of England, according to Google, has 400 miles (643.74 km) of coastline.  Order up 400 miles worth of razor wire. Have the army install and erect it with designated access points for beach or whatever access. The army patrols it. Basic style internment camps to be constructed by the army, freeing up hotels to be returned to their original purpose, for anyone breaching the barriers, and process any asylum requests for those who are in possession of official documents re: name, age and nationality. Those who do not comply will just have to sit it out until they conform to the requirements. Cease any cash handouts, supply food, cooking and washing facilities, tents with heating and wait whilst the numbers diminish.

Just a suggestion Ken as you didn't seem to be able to envisage any situation other than shooting these people.

 

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On 18/11/2021 at 20:16, NormanH said:

 

 

45 minutes ago, cajal said:

Fortunately, I have no skin in the immigration situation that is affecting the UK right now, although I do believe it is not a recent problem but one that has been an issue for decades.  I'm more concerned what France and Brussels action is to halt this unsustainable influx of undocumented emigrants into the countries of the EU.

If the people of the UK are serious  and genuinely want a halt in this situation, then they will have to be prepared to suffer some inconveniences. As has been reported in the media and on TV, the eastern states of the EU are in the process or have already completed  erecting physical barriers along their borders which I believe are patrolled by those nations armed forces.

The south coast of England, according to Google, has 400 miles (643.74 km) of coastline.  Order up 400 miles worth of razor wire. Have the army install and erect it with designated access points for beach or whatever access. The army patrols it. Basic style internment camps to be constructed by the army, freeing up hotels to be returned to their original purpose, for anyone breaching the barriers, and process any asylum requests for those who are in possession of official documents re: name, age and nationality. Those who do not comply will just have to sit it out until they conform to the requirements. Cease any cash handouts, supply food, cooking and washing facilities, tents with heating and wait whilst the numbers diminish.

Just a suggestion Ken as you didn't seem to be able to envisage any situation other than shooting these people.

The Australian procedures, rules and laws that they have to deal with unauthorized immigrants has some merit.

"In 1992, Australia adopted a mandatory detention policy obliging the government to detain all persons entering or being in the country without a valid visa, while their claim to remain in Australia is processed and security and health checks undertaken. Also, at the same time, the law was changed to permit indefinite detention, from the previous limit of 273 days. The policy was instituted by the Keating Government in 1992, and has been varied by the subsequent Howard, Rudd, Gillard, Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison Governments.[1] The policy is regarded as controversial and has been criticised by a number of organisations.

*The High Court of Australia has confirmed, by majority, the constitutionality of indefinite mandatory detention of non-citizens.[2]

Mandatory detention rules also apply to persons whose visa has been cancelled by the Minister, for example on character grounds, allowing such persons to be detained in immigration detention and deported, some after living in Australia for a long period.[3][4] Furthermore, if a person has Australian citizenship and another citizenship, their Australian citizenship can be revoked"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_detention_in_Australia

*But I cannot somehow envisage that UK courts would hold with indefinite mandatory detention.

But it worked for Australia as it reduced the immigration flood to a trickle.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ken said:

You are saying that Britain should build a fleet of gun boats, patrol offshore and stop the immigrants, is that right? I wonder how they would stop them! Run them down, I don't think so. Machine gun them , even worse. How about just whizzing by them and cause them to capsize perhaps? Tie a rope and tow them back into French waters ? I think the French would have something to say about illegal entry into their territorial waters. 

In short your suggestion is a non starter. Almost certainly every method would involve people in the water and some drowning. That would be unacceptable not only internationally but to the people of Britain themselves. Quite clearly Hitler's rubber boats could be machine gunned. Illegal immigrants, women and children can't. The government is facing tremendous pressure to do something about this problem and all I ever read are rather silly and unworkable 'solutions'  Try again, I'm sure the authorities would be pleased to find a solution. Incidentally I have no idea how to stop it either!

I would suggest that the patrol boats should simply block the illegal's boats. At the point in the Channel where UK waters begin. Simple to judge with multi-fix GPS.

If the UK apology for a government doesn't do something robust, then the people of Kent will take the law into their own hands, I fear. As have travellers on motorways which the morons from Insulate have tried to block; HGV, Van drivers and plain private motorists have increasingly dragged the fools off the road, and rather roughly, too!

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@ Harnser:

Yes, I agree with the internment camps a concept I realised was the optimal approach years back.

" process any asylum requests for those who are in possession of official documents re: name, age and nationality. "

Nice idea; they destroy their papers and lie about their nationality and original nation state. As I was told years back by a senior Eurotunnel manager. For example, during the Syrian crisis, Mutti Merkel aka Führerin Merkel, as we know escalated the problem, dramatically. Whereupon loads of illegals claimed to be Syrians!

The old sob story (cue violins) about poor little migrants from war torn countries, son, sob, cannot wash when so many illegals are from Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran, Bangladesh. Somalia, Eritrea etc.

Thus internment camps would allow the determination of their actual language and true nationality, plus then the further truth about which EU member safe state they first set foot on. Since that is where international law on asylum demands they claim it.

Trying to reach any intelligent accommodation with the little twerp, Macron, at present, is impossible, since he is suddenly rattling his sabre and strutting his stuff to show the French voter how patriotic he has suddenly become!

The Entente Cordiale seems to have been forgotten...

 

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2 hours ago, Gluestick said:

the further truth about which EU member safe state they first set foot on. Since that is where international law on asylum demands they claim it.

What international law on asylum?  There is no such rule in law.   

This thread is a bit sickening really.  Why do certain people keep referring to 'illegal immigrants' rather than 'asylum seekers' or 'refugees'?  Quite a high percentage of those who have made it across to the UK in boats were genuine refugees and were given asylum.  The UK has stopped them going any other way.  There should be a proper centre for people to go to and seek asylum but instead, all the  ideas seem to be about preventing them from trying.

Edited by Debra
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Given how hard it is to to prove that something doesn't exist, maybe it would be easier if those who claim that such a law exists, could point us to the text?

I wonder if Gérald Darmanin finally managed to get through to Patel last week that the UK simply telling the French to control the UK borders better isn't good enough, the UK has to take ownership of the problem and address it properly. Anyway it appears that Johnson has just had the amazingly bright idea of setting up a group to look into the issue. Would have been good if HMG had thought of doing this a decade or so back, but hey, better late than never.  https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/priti-patel-set-oversee-more-25506767

 

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1 hour ago, Gardian said:

Isn’t the reality (and has been for years) that the UK has been viewed as a ‘soft touch’ by would-be immigrants?

It’s as simple as that.

 

The soft touch scenario is an attraction, add to that the fact that most of then will have some english  to a greater or lesser extent, as opposed to french, and that there is no requirement for personal id or registration in the UK and if they desire they can just submerge into the the twilight world of the black economy, usually working for other immigrant employers who turn a blind eye to the fact that they are illegals, and pay then less than the minimum wage on account of that.

Then there is the widespread beds-in-sheds accommodation going on.   https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tens-of-thousands-of-people-living-in-beds-in-sheds-across-the-capital-report-shows-a3723786.html

Add to all that, free medical treatment anywhere on the NHS - no questions asked.

Why WOULDN'T you want to get into the UK anyway you could?

 

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11 hours ago, Gluestick said:

I would suggest that the patrol boats should simply block the illegal's boats. At the point in the Channel where UK waters begin. Simple to judge with multi-fix GPS.

If the UK apology for a government doesn't do something robust, then the people of Kent will take the law into their own hands, I fear. As have travellers on motorways which the morons from Insulate have tried to block; HGV, Van drivers and plain private motorists have increasingly dragged the fools off the road, and rather roughly, too!

The sea isn't a motorway or street. 'Blocking' a boat is a ridiculous concept. If it were possible, which it isn't, just how long do you 'block' it for; an hour, a day; week perhaps! In the mean time several other rubber boats move in. Perhaps you would have a whole line of gunboats stretching for miles along the coast all tied together to form a barrage! Utter nonsense I'm afraid. As is the suggestion the people of Kent will take the law into their own hands. Brits don't do that sort of thing. Sure a few idiots may cause some trouble, at some point but I doubt even that in the case of illegal immigrants. I can just see the people of Kent making war on women and children suffering from the wet and cold!!!!! There is no practical solution. It has to be political and as France and the U.K. don't exactly see eye to eye on anything that is a remote hope!

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9 hours ago, Debra said:

What international law on asylum?  There is no such rule in law.   

This thread is a bit sickening really.  Why do certain people keep referring to 'illegal immigrants' rather than 'asylum seekers' or 'refugees'?  Quite a high percentage of those who have made it across to the UK in boats were genuine refugees and were given asylum.  The UK has stopped them going any other way.  There should be a proper centre for people to go to and seek asylum but instead, all the  ideas seem to be about preventing them from trying.

Well, the reason they are referred to as 'illegal' immigrants is that is precisely what they are. You can be an illegal immigrant or a legal one there isn't an in between. Asylum seekers or refugees are still immigrants. Their status depends on how they arrive in the country, legally or illegally.  It may be sickening  that the term is offensive but then reality is always difficult for some!

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On 18/11/2021 at 19:33, Gluestick said:

If you feel complacent in your French idyll, Eurotrash

OK I'm a bit late reading your post, but... methinks you make too many assumptions on all kinds of things. Question, question, question, don't make assumptions that lead to inappropriate comments. Or perhaps you're like Boris, not a details person.

For starters, Eurotrash is not even in France.

More importantly, have you found the link yet to support your categoric assertion that "Would be asylum seekers are legally bound to apply for asylum in the very first safe nation they reach"? (Because I suspect you were thinking of the Dublin agreement which is simply an agreement between EU member states and as such is no longer relevant to the UK.)

 

 

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12 hours ago, Debra said:

 
There should be a proper centre for people to go to and seek asylum but instead, all the  ideas seem to be about preventing them from trying.

I did say that in my post Debs. 

Can I remind you that Sarkozy had a functioning centre knocked down in Calais. That is the one who has recently been convicted for coruption. Nice chap. 

And whilst we are on the subject, as the migrants explain themselves when being interviewed, the French government makes it as uncomfortable as possible for them on French soil so their only real choice is to risk their lives going to the UK.

I personally commend the UK with the way they rescue and then home migrants seeking asylum. 

The UK is not the bad guy here. 

But it can't carry on. The UK is full. It is that simple.

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13 hours ago, Debra said:

What international law on asylum?  There is no such rule in law.   

This thread is a bit sickening really.  Why do certain people keep referring to 'illegal immigrants' rather than 'asylum seekers' or 'refugees'?  Quite a high percentage of those who have made it across to the UK in boats were genuine refugees and were given asylum.  The UK has stopped them going any other way.  There should be a proper centre for people to go to and seek asylum but instead, all the  ideas seem to be about preventing them from trying.

Frontex, the EU border and coast guard agency stated that:-

"A total of 11,150 people attempted to reach European countries in an unlawful way through its external borders in June 2021"

 "The agency has revealed that the number of illegal border crossings at Europe’s external borders reached more than 61,000 in the first six months of 2021"

So by definition if you enter a country illegally, you become an illegal immigrant don't you?

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/frontex-11100-people-attempted-to-enter-europe-illegally-in-june/

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To be fair Harnser, there are plenty of illegal 'British' immigrants living in France.

I met two on Brittany Ferries a few months back.

Of course they had the luxury of going BF rather than on an inflatable dingy.

They were illegal immigrants living in France nevertheless. 

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13 hours ago, Debra said:

What international law on asylum?  There is no such rule in law.   

 

Err...

What is the international law regarding asylum seekers?
 
Article 14(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), which was adopted in 1948, guarantees the right to seek and enjoy asylum in other countries.
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4 hours ago, EuroTr@sh said:

It's all very well trying to be a smart **** but the debate is about illegal immigrants, not legal ones.  Not refugees, asylum seekers or migrants. Illegal is illegal. Yes it is black and white. You may not like it but tough.

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I thought the debate was supposed to be about people who cross the Channel in rubber boats. Some of those are asylum seekers, some are illegals. That's one of the problems caised by the lack of secure routes.

But if the debate has moved on and is now about illegals only, my bad, I haven't been following it closely.

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7 minutes ago, EuroTr@sh said:

I thought the debate was supposed to be about people who cross the Channel in rubber boats. Some of those are asylum seekers, some are illegals. That's one of the problems caised by the lack of secure routes.

But if the debate has moved on and is now about illegals only, my bad, I haven't been following it closely.

Moved on! Have you been asleep?  It has never been about anything else despite your smart assed comments!

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A thread about people who cross the Channel on rubber boat, some of whom are asylum seekers and some of whom are aiming to be illegal immigrants, is to my mind not at all the same thing as a thread about illegal immigrants.

A person fleeing terror or whatever, who requests asylum as soon as they cross the border into their destination country, and who is subsequently granted, never was an illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants are the ones who leg it and disappear into the decor as soon as they land, taking advantage of the UK's lax labour laws and refusal to adopt ID cards which makes it easy for them. Different situations, different issues, different problems needing different solutions.

But I agree with Debra, the whole thread has become sickening and I'm out. Same goes for this forum.

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Away from all danger

Away from all danger and snug in his bed
The great British bulldog lays down his sweet head.
The stars in the bright sky look down where he snores
The great British bulldog, with firmly locked doors.

The child in the night air there shivers and weeps,
But the great British bulldog, how soundly he sleeps.
I love you, great bulldog, please guard me from fear,
And keep all those migrants from entering here.

Be near me, great bulldog, be faithful and stay
Close by me forever and love me I pray;
Love all the dear children who live in this land,
And keep out those other ones – they’ll understand.

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10 hours ago, EuroTr@sh said:

A thread about people who cross the Channel on rubber boat, some of whom are asylum seekers and some of whom are aiming to be illegal immigrants, is to my mind not at all the same thing as a thread about illegal immigrants.

A person fleeing terror or whatever, who requests asylum as soon as they cross the border into their destination country, and who is subsequently granted, never was an illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants are the ones who leg it and disappear into the decor as soon as they land, taking advantage of the UK's lax labour laws and refusal to adopt ID cards which makes it easy for them. Different situations, different issues, different problems needing different solutions.

But I agree with Debra, the whole thread has become sickening and I'm out. Same goes for this forum.

 

8 hours ago, NormanH said:

Away from all danger

Away from all danger and snug in his bed
The great British bulldog lays down his sweet head.
The stars in the bright sky look down where he snores
The great British bulldog, with firmly locked doors.

The child in the night air there shivers and weeps,
But the great British bulldog, how soundly he sleeps.
I love you, great bulldog, please guard me from fear,
And keep all those migrants from entering here.

Be near me, great bulldog, be faithful and stay
Close by me forever and love me I pray;
Love all the dear children who live in this land,
And keep out those other ones – they’ll understand.

 

10 hours ago, EuroTr@sh said:

A thread about people who cross the Channel on rubber boat, some of whom are asylum seekers and some of whom are aiming to be illegal immigrants, is to my mind not at all the same thing as a thread about illegal immigrants.

A person fleeing terror or whatever, who requests asylum as soon as they cross the border into their destination country, and who is subsequently granted, never was an illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants are the ones who leg it and disappear into the decor as soon as they land, taking advantage of the UK's lax labour laws and refusal to adopt ID cards which makes it easy for them. Different situations, different issues, different problems needing different solutions.

But I agree with Debra, the whole thread has become sickening and I'm out. Same goes for this forum.

Wriggle all you want to; waffling on about asylum seekers. You have been embarrassed with your nonsense.

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Ken

Before you embarass yourself further.

Eurotrash (ET) is the most polite, the most helpful person you could ever meet on a French forum.

Just as important, their knowledge of France and language skills surpasses anyone I have met on a French forum.

She is always the first person help someone when they have a problem. Particularly technical. 

She loves and adores France. 

Her knowledge of France is better than most French folk. 

So please be quiet Ken.

 

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