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Antipub 82 antipublicity - Montauban


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Hear hear Cassis well said,  as well as Miki.  I don't understand either, very strange, perhaps Rumzigal is correct.

 I agree about the other offences mentioned, they are despicable.  If someone supporting an organisation against any of the mentioned offences, I would certainly support their efforts.

I have seen this argument so many times here. If ever anyone mentions a wrong or even cruelty of any kind, particularly one that is occurring in France, there is always something worse and people will say that it isn't that bad, there are worse things to worry about "that is how things are done here and you should accept it". For example, child slavery is much worse than anything mentioned here but because of that should we turn a blind eye to lesser offences and not support people that want to get involved locally and make a difference.

Edit: Dick, just saw your post. I thought that his organisation did get involved with unruly planning as well. Sorry for the tirade, if that was directed toward me. [:@]

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But WJT there is already a law that needs upholding, that is all.

 In reality you have to pay to join this organization, surely the cost of a stamp to point the situation out to the correct regulatory authority would be a better investment.

I take it your Euros are in the post[:)]

I would suggest that where it actually matters (scenic or historic locations etc) the law is enforced, where it doesn't matter so much the authorities obviously feel they have better ways to use their time or resources.

 

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A pressure group always has more clout than an individual sending a letter.

[quote user="Russethouse"]

I would suggest that where it actually matters (scenic or historic locations etc) the law is enforced, where it doesn't matter so much the authorities obviously feel they have better ways to use their time or resources.

[/quote]

I don't think that "the authorities" should be free to pick and choose whether a law applies, or that if your area does not resemble an Alpine meadow with Notre Dame plonked in the middle then adding to the ugliness is okay. 

Obviously a deliberately extreme example, but where do you draw the line?  I can see many a person in authority giving the nod to convenient decisions - to keep friends sweet, to keep in with influential business or land owners or for whatever reason - if the law were discretionary.

I didn't feel that strongly about this issue when we started out but I'm beginning to!

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 Actually I'm not sure I agree with your first premise - in some cases, perhaps - but its a very great deal easier to sign a petition and let someone else do the work than to show you really care and actively DO something even if is only write a 'stiff' letter which often requires a reply.  Officials are well aware of that.

Perhaps join a pressure group AND write the letter is the most effective way.

So "the authorities" are free to pick and choose whether a law applies and if your area does not resemble an Alpine meadow with Notre Dame plonked in the middle then adding to the ugliness of the place is okay. 

My guess is that the priorities are governed by finance - what would you pick to do without when this becomes a priority, or should taxes go up to pay for it.?

 

 

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[quote user="WJT"]

Well unbelievable, nice one KathyC, all my effort in explaining the situation appears to have just gone over your head I guess. Saying that after some of my comments in regards to some of your views, really is something.

 Sorry if you still think my first posts were pretty nimbyish, but my personal experience of this happening in my backyard in your words is what I can speak about, not the smugness of someone like yourself being IYBYPFSOTOTWNBALIWACish  ( in your backyard please from someone on the outside that will not be affected looking in without a clue ish). [:@]

[/quote]

My post was supposed to be one of reconciliation and entente cordiale. I wish I hadn't bothered now![:@]

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Kathy, it's funny because that is exactly the way I felt with my two previous posts to you and the reason I became very upset.  I felt that you threw it right back in my face, therefore, that is the only reason I replied. Perhaps you don't even know when you call someone a name or refer to them as an acronym, that that could be taken as an insult and hurt someones feelings. Please take a look at your post to me again and see why it may not have been taken as a reconciliation but an insult.

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[quote user="WJT"]

Kathy, it's funny because that is exactly the way I felt with my two previous posts to you and the reason I became very upset.  I felt that you threw it right back in my face, therefore, that is the only reason I replied. Perhaps you don't even know when you call someone a name or refer to them as an acronym, that that could be taken as an insult and hurt someones feelings. Please take a look at your post to me again and see why it may not have been taken as a reconciliation but an insult.

[/quote]

You see, my take on this was that I specifically didn't call you a n***** in my last post, but wrote that I thought that your posts had been n*******. I hope that you see the difference because I did give it some thought when I worded it.(Actually, I've reread the thread and I've never called you a n**** at all.) I'm sorry if you didn't see the distinction, although I thought it an important one. In my line of work there's a definite distinction between describing someone as bad/wicked/antisocial as opposed to exhibiting bad/wicked/antisocial behaviour but perhaps that distinction doesn't travel well.

I also felt that you were condescending to me with your comments about people living in towns as though we are a lower form of life, although I doubt that you meant that either.[:)]

 

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[quote user="KathyC"][quote user="WJT"]

Kathy, it's funny because that is exactly the way I felt with my two previous posts to you and the reason I became very upset.  I felt that you threw it right back in my face, therefore, that is the only reason I replied. Perhaps you don't even know when you call someone a name or refer to them as an acronym, that that could be taken as an insult and hurt someones feelings. Please take a look at your post to me again and see why it may not have been taken as a reconciliation but an insult.

[/quote]

You see, my take on this was that I specifically didn't call you a n***** in my last post, but wrote that I thought that your posts had been n*******. I hope that you see the difference because I did give it some thought when I worded it.(Actually, I've reread the thread and I've never called you a n**** at all.) I'm sorry if you didn't see the distinction, although I thought it an important one. In my line of work there's a definite distinction between describing someone as bad/wicked/antisocial as opposed to exhibiting bad/wicked/antisocial behaviour but perhaps that distinction doesn't travel well.

I also felt that you were condescending to me with your comments about people living in towns as though we are a lower form of life, although I doubt that you meant that either.[:)]

 

[/quote]

Well then Kathy, lets just put it down to a misunderstanding. I took offence to being called that regardless if it was directed toward me or my behaviour, because it is not true. 

I think it goes without saying that I was not implying that people living in towns are of a lower life form. We currently live just outside of London so would be a little ironic to say the least. It just wasn't what we were looking for at the moment for our life in France (when we do eventually move here permanently), but I think it would be wonderful to live in a lovely French town. [:)]

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Thanks Cassis for answering some of the more obviously bizarre reasonings of this forum's contributors. I thought I'd heard them all, but apparently not yet.

  In the UK, the National Trust has enough members and finances to buy up great swathes of land and certain properties they deem worthy of protection; no such organisation exists in France, which is why I thought that foreign residents would be pleased to learn that there is at least one association that is doing remarkable work. With the aid of a very  small budget and  the goodwill of its members, Paysages de France tries to save the French countryside from unscrupulous companies with vested interests. It is the only national association that has had any success in  removing roadside hoardings when they are illegally installed. (and of course, Russethouse, there is no compensation for loss of income, why should there be?). Without their backing your local préfet won't even reply to  letters denouncing infringements..

           There are more 4x3m hoardings in France now, than in the USSR under Stalin. Each medium size town has several hundred giant boards at its entrances. The advertisers are hammering home their messages to consumers, they are spoiling  beautiful landscapes and ruining town access roads. What's probably even more important is the fact that the messages are in 90% of cases paid for and promoting the hypermarchés who are supplied by 6 central buying schemes that ensure that farmers are paid minimum prices for their labours and are pushed into employing industrial farming techniques that  cause extensive pollution. "Pourquoi payer plus cher?" asked the latest campaign by Intermarché - without giving anyone the chance to answer.

 The fact that the advertising industry in France  has managed, in the space of several decades, to convince the majority that its 'normal' to erect giant signs in great numbers and that bus shelters must have advertising panels incorporated to  'cover their cost' shows that a general intoxication of minds and spirtits has been achieved.

     If anyone agrees with this analysis then they should join  Paysages de France   http://paysagesdefrance.free.fr

 There is an anti pub site www.bap.propagande.org  which is remarkable and contains many photos of antipub actions and examples of ruined town entrances etc.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

There are more 4x3m hoardings in France now, than in the USSR under Stalin

And you think I'm bizarre ? What on earth has that got to do with it ?

 

[/quote]

That one struck me as well. I assume that Eric means the big hoardings around Red Square on the May Day Parade events. Russia in general is (or was under Communism) pretty bereft of advertising hoardings per se. In fact it was pretty bereft of most things consumerist/capitalist...

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A personal reply. Paysages  de France is not antipub.    

    Ahhh..... Russethouse. Decidedly yes, you are bizarre, if you take the defence of three or four multinational companies that insist on imposing their vision of capitalism on 60 million French people. Stalin manipulated public opinion in his fashion, so do the advertising barons. The millions of giant publicity hoardings in France rake in billions of dollars for Clear Channel, JC Decaux and Viacom (the company who sacked Tom Cruise recently). These companies are controlled by US pension funds. Each town entrance is just a little dot on their map back in  the USA.  The hoardings are 90% devoted to promoting hypermarchés (exposé in previous posting) that are responsable for the fact that 30 000 French farmers give up farming each year because of the price war engaged in  by these same  hypermarchés.

         I represent Paysages de France in the establishment of a local by law in Montauban. (the town of 400 hoardings) The UPE                  (the 'afficheurs' union) has managed to expell me from the proceedings on a technical point and in doing so will delay the application of the 'règlement'local de publicité'  that the town wishes to implement. The advertising industry is run by a clique of unscupulous money grabbing individuals. I've been threatened physically and verbally since I've taken a stand against  this sinister profession. (a stand backed up by local organisations such as Les Verts and the Confederation Paysanne),
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OK - I will reply as an individual separately - I have asked you before to be aware of the Code of Conduct which you agree to by posting here I have copied it below for your convenience:

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Oh come on Gay, where is the abuse in that last post ? Sorry but it comes cross more like pulling rank as you don't agree with him. His point is very valid, if you want Las Vegas, then we can sit back and let it happen, then all the lovers of France can then say, who let this happen and we can all blame....well who exactly, maybe paysage  !!

This is the problem with Mods as I see it. You want to be able to converse and debate but then this happens and the next thing, you throw in the regulations to suit your case. The debate is at a disadvantage surely, any Mod can simply say what they like (and you know how many times a Mod has taken full advantage of their position and I had hoped you would never be one like that) and then bring in the regs when it suits.

Surely you cannot be serious this time ? If so, please point out the parts he has transgressed the regs with.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

to Paysages de France...

  • Please do not advertise your products or services on the message boards. Any advertising without permission will be removed.

[/quote]

Which, considering the subject, is so perfectly and beautifully ironic. [6][:-))]

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Nah, Miki's only jealous because she's got more posts than him [;-)]

What I find slightly bizarre is the passion, bordering on obsession, that these signs seem to generate. As I said before, I dislike the MacDonald ethic and US cultural domination as much as anybody, but these are only signs, and the only way they will hurt anybody is by falling on them. They are not weapons of mass destruction, child abusers, whale killers, mass poisoners. They are far from nice to look at, and I don't like seeing them in what would otherwise be a scenic location, but there seem to be plenty of things in the wider world, or even within France, that are rather more harmful to the planet and the human race than posters telling you to eat hamburgers or buy your chickens at the supermarket. And anyway, there seem to be laws for dealing with roadside advertising.

Instead, we read about conspiracies to put farmers out of business and attempts by big corporations to dominate the world and throw diminutive actors on the unemployment scrapheap.

More like the maire and law enforcers taking a backhander, methinks - oh, sorry, this is France and such things could never happen, could they?

Has anybody else read Clochemerle?

 

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[quote user="Will"]

More like the maire and law enforcers taking a backhander, methinks - oh, sorry, this is France and such things could never happen, could they?

Has anybody else read Clochemerle?

 

[/quote]

Yes!  [:)] But I still think there's an element of double standards in action.   In Britain, these things are seen as terrible corruption, proof that the country's going to the dogs, etc etc etc.    Move to France and suddenly it's all quite cute, and isn't it a laff, I had dinner with the Maire, and all that.

I won't be joining this anti-hoardings assoc, but PaysagesDeFrance is 100% within his rights to point out that France is run by capitalist business, just like any other modern country.   Intermarché/Leclerc/Carrefour/Geant care no more about their customers than do Walmart or Tesco.

It does seem odd that French people claim to be so against globalisation (mondialisation), yet embrace all this c r a p with open arms.  Actions speak louder than words, I guess!  [:)] 

 

 

 

 

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Can't disagree with any of that, Rumzi.

"Intermarché/Leclerc/Carrefour/Geant care no more about their customers than do Walmart or Tesco."

True - arguably they care even less. Consumerism and customer power French-style is a few steps behind the USA or Britain. Once a company in USA or Britain loses the confidence of its customers it's in big trouble. Look at what happened to companies like Ratners, though admittedly in that case it was the chairman's own admission that it sold crap for chavs that was the last straw. Tesco is possibly large enough to be able to resist that - but then look what Ralph Nader did to General Motors.

The way to hurt big companies is on the balance sheet. Stop buying. Fortunately France still has plenty of alternatives even if one does have to pay a bit more. Also in France the first person you would hit would be the small local supermarket franchise holder, but then perhaps they are just as guilty as their principals in the 'conspiracy'.

The farmers agrument doesn't entirely wash, either. Consider what a French farmer receives for a litre of milk compared with his equivalent in Britain.

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Well I’m off to get some cheap rabbit (3,99 per kilo) from one supermarket and duck from another because it's soooo cheap. I know this because it's on the big 10 X 4M panels going in to Carcassonne.

If the panels were smaller would they not cause accidents as drivers strain to read them?

Somebody said this guys group is ONLY trying to get the current laws upheld which I agree is the way to go if the panels really worry you. This is partially true but many of his posts do mention that his group want to bring in new laws as well. If they can't make the current laws work (because as he says nobody does anything, which implies it’s not the laws that are a problem but the officials) then what chance do they have of making new laws work?

Having big boards advertising cheap food in supermarkets is not what forces the price of food down. Many people going to their local supermarket never read the boards around or in their town they just go. It's the consumers that are the farmers 'enemy' because of their quest for cheaper and cheaper food.

Another person said about rubbish (which I mentioned in another of my posts) not killing animals. Well it does because some animals are stupid enough to try and eat carrier bags, they get strangled by the four hole plastic thing that hold tins of beer together and by carrier bag handles etc etc. They don't decompose and they are there till somebody picks them up. Some plastic bags also have toxins in them so I am told that become more toxic over age. Anyway that’s another issue but getting this stuff cleaned up is still a good idea.

I totally agree with Will, I can see why some don't like these panels but there are load of other things around us that need sorting out first. We could start perhaps with dog poo (I’m being serious).

 

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