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Antipub 82 antipublicity - Montauban


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[:)][quote user="KathyC"]

. I agree that "all of us here have been effected" (sic) but the effect has been that young people have been able to stay in their home area near their families. I thought that the quality of family life was one of the reasons that people moved to France, or is that only the quality of their family's life? [/quote]

Kathy, I think you're being a bit harsh.

Montpellier, for example, (there's another thread in S-E France about this) is growing at an incredibly fast pace.   Its population has doubled in 40 years (it's now France's 8th biggest city), and people are still flooding in.    French people, that is, from other areas of France.   Almost everyone I know here, their families are elsewhere in France.   The Pyrenees, Paris, Brittany, Clermont Ferrand...... just as in much of Britain, a family is just for Christmas.

And yes, it is a shame to see vineyards and fields being replaced with housing estates.   In any country.     

As with other posters, we too looked at houses whose view, we were assured, would remain green, because building wasn't allowed.    A year later...... oh look, those houses are now looking over new developments.  

Development does benefit some local people.   You can see the vineyard owners who are biding their time till land prices go even higher!    And no, there won't be many Brits buying land round here, it's way too expensive and crowded!  [:)]     

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This topic seems to have moved right down the active list - which usually happens because somebody has edited an earlier posting. So the reason for this post is to get it back up to the right position, and stop people thinking it has been deleted.

And I also wanted to say that Paysages de France seems to have an agenda against the advertising industry. Surely the best way to fight the big advertisers is a quiet boycott of their products or services, to let them know (without giving them even more publicity) that their publicity is not appreciated, so as a PR tool it is counter productive.

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Which bit did you find harsh? Perhaps if local housing and work were more available,  young people wouldn't have to relocate to the cities. If your area is as expensive as you're always telling us and if people are as poor as you usually describe, how are so many people managing to move there?  (That's not meant to be snide, I'm really interested.) I don't really think that we've been discussing the growth of the cities (although that would be interesting) but modern housing being built as villages expand. Keep up at the back! (Can't do smilies, imagine yourself smiled at.)
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I personally don't think that there would be a hidden agenda, just a desire to stop the spread of (as Cassis said) hideous scars on the landscape. But what do I know. [:)] 

Rumzigal, finally a voice of reason, I too think she was being a bit harsh. [;-)] Very good points as well.

I have heard of similar situations happening in the Alps. I have read about one case involving a developer and a Mayor that was accused of accepting money for pushing through plans without anyone's knowledge, it resulted in some developments on green and protected areas there. It appears to be a growing problem in France and perhaps some are not aware of the extent because it is not happening in their particular area.

I do take Kathy's point and understand why she feels so strongly for the need for affordable housing and I agree with this. However, I believe that in some cases, developments are occurring for greed and not for need, without any forethought on planning and the ramifications of the local population and surroundings.

However, I must admit that I am dumbfounded by anyone that suggests that farmers or people with property should be allowed to do as they wish on their land regardless of the impact of the local surroundings. We own land but I would never dream that I would be allowed to erect billboards on our property. If this was the case, and we were allowed to do as we pleased, we (as well as many others on this forum) could probably fit quite a few small houses on our land along with billboards and placards and make a tidy sum. I'm afraid that I could never agree with this train of thought and I am a bit of a capitalist at heart, very surprised to hear it here. [blink] 

Regarding the comment of the adverts over 40 years ago, this statement was made on the other forum [:)] "the old wall paintings and enamel signs were works of art and McDonald's didn't exist then in Europe". I have no experience of this but I felt it a very good observation. By the way, even though I don't eat there, I like McDonald's, particularly, when driving through France. It has always been a reliable source for necessary nature breaks and I always end up looking for McD's signs. Personally, I have no problems with billboards and adverts as long as they are located in appropriate areas with proper planning.

Cassis, I always felt that you were a sausage of good taste. [:)]


Paysages de France, good luck to you. By the way your link for zaleatv.org doesn't seem to work.

Edit: KathyC, I have just seen your post. Can't speak for Rumzigal but perhaps the bit when you were going after me. [:D]

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For Zalea TV, just google Zalea and search the film on the site. The film 'Montauban et les 400 panneaux' was added on Zalea the 15th october 2006.

          Zalea TV is the only totally independent TV channel (viewable on Free box and on internet) in France. The CSA has had it banned from the airwaves for the past three three years for treating embarrassing (to the govt) subjects. In fact, it is certainly  no more subversive than the BBC, but as anyone who looks at French TV will know, in France television is very tame and self censored.

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[quote user="KathyC"]If your area is as expensive as you're always telling us and if people are as poor as you usually describe, how are so many people managing to move there? [/quote]

I can only refer you to the other thread again, Kathyc, in S-E France, where LanguedocGal (I think!) pointed out the oddity of Montpellier.  There are jobs, but there's also hugely high unemployment.   Because of the TGV opening up from Paris a few years ago, lots of people commute on a weekly basis - wife and family live in the sun, papa commutes to Paris to earn the dosh.  

Expensive?   No, I think 13 500 euros is a fair price for a one-car garage, don't you?  [:)]  

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[quote user="RumziGal"]

[quote user="KathyC"]If your area is as expensive as you're always telling us and if people are as poor as you usually describe, how are so many people managing to move there? [/quote]

I can only refer you to the other thread again, Kathyc, in S-E France, where LanguedocGal (I think!) pointed out the oddity of Montpellier.  There are jobs, but there's also hugely high unemployment.   Because of the TGV opening up from Paris a few years ago, lots of people commute on a weekly basis - wife and family live in the sun, papa commutes to Paris to earn the dosh.  

Expensive?   No, I think 13 500 euros is a fair price for a one-car garage, don't you?  [:)]  

[/quote]

Haven't seen the other thread; will have a look. I wasn't arguing with what you've told us about the area but the two facts didn't seem to "go". Like USA then, extremes of wealth and poverty?

WTBJ (sorry can't remember your initials)

Didn't mean to have a go at you personally but your first posts were pretty nimbyish. Sometimes people who aren't directly affected by problems (but do have previous experience of the issues) are able to be less emotional about things. I think that much of this thread has actually been about town attitudes versus country attitudes, rather than UK v. French - but that would be another thread entirely![:D]

(Yippee, I've remembered how to do smilies!)

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[quote user="KathyC"]

I think that much of this thread has actually been about town attitudes versus country attitudes, rather than UK v. French - but that would be another thread entirely!

[/quote]

Surely the core of the thread, which is about the publicity posters that "adorn" our roadsides, has nothing to do with either of those possible adversarial groups.  I would say it's more to do with whether you believe that landowners should be allowed (illegally) to mar the appearance of the countryside,  which otherwise gives enjoyment to poor and rich, town and country, French and foreigner alike, without discrimination.

The question of housing development is a totally different matter which is just confusing the issue.

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Can I object to the continued and apparently derogatory use of the term "nimby"?

It is not a phenomenon unique to Britain, and is in fact quite normal in France.

French people  in a village in Les Landes may not give a sparrow's fart about another nuclear power station being built over in the Rhone Valley, but they'll soon be protesting strongly if an incinerator or landfill site starts to appear at the end of their rue. 

A nimby by any other name smells the same.  

    

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Well unbelievable, nice one KathyC, all my effort in explaining the situation appears to have just gone over your head I guess. Saying that after some of my comments in regards to some of your views, really is something.

 Sorry if you still think my first posts were pretty nimbyish, but my personal experience of this happening in my backyard in your words is what I can speak about, not the smugness of someone like yourself being IYBYPFSOTOTWNBALIWACish  ( in your backyard please from someone on the outside that will not be affected looking in without a clue ish). [:@]

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[quote user="WJT"]

However, I must admit that I am dumbfounded by anyone that suggests that farmers or people with property should be allowed to do as they wish on their land regardless of the impact of the local surroundings. We own land but I would never dream that I would be allowed to erect billboards on our property. If this was the case, and we were allowed to do as we pleased, we (as well as many others on this forum) could probably fit quite a few small houses on our land along with billboards and placards and make a tidy sum. I'm afraid that I could never agree with this train of thought and I am a bit of a capitalist at heart, very surprised to hear it here. [blink] 

[/quote]

Building houses on your land and putting up bill boards are two totally different things as you well know. Mind you 9,000 Euros a year income from six boards with no capital outlay is not bad money in my book. I bet the farmer was well pleased plus he gets it every year without hassle. Unfortunately I don't have any land near a main road otherwise I might be tempted.  Building houses needs planning permission as you well know so perhaps I should treat your comment the same way as you treated mine. I have to admit that when we come to sell up I shall first apply for change of usage which should add a few extra Euros to the sale price. I would leave the risk of the build to others; business is business as they say.

The builders down our way are now being more proactive and they are buying land and building houses not to order but to sell themselves, there’s more money in it.

Now if you do want to campaign about something how about litter and fly tipping. Yet another Brit caught before Christmas fly tipping on the side of the road outside Quillan, hope they locked him/her away and billed them for the cleanup. They need to register as resident to get a permit for the local dump is their excuse. Probably does not want to do that because he/she may end up having to pay tax or something. Walking down the Aude there is more and more rubbish on the banks, shopping sacks, plastic bottles and alike (even a shopping trolley). Now that does ruin the countryside and probably has an effect on animals and the environment as well. What about high voltage power lines and the health risks? They really do effect peoples lives.

Well honestly, bill boards for goodness sake; wish I had enough time and money to waste.

 

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[quote user="KathyC"]I wasn't arguing with what you've told us about the area but the two facts didn't seem to "go". Like USA then, extremes of wealth and poverty?[/quote]

Here's the Internaute site for Montpellier, you can compare it with somewhere near you.  http://www.linternaute.com/ville/ville/donnee/388/montpellier.shtml

I dunno, it's just a city really, it has high-rise no-go problem areas and it has middle-class semi-detached suburban areas.   It has grotty side-street shops and it has designer boutiques.   And I do know that prices in the Southampton/Winchester area didn't seem all that excessive to me after being used to prices here!   

You might find some property prices in here, it says that Montpellier is the most expensive city in Languedoc Roussillon:

http://www.frenchpropertylinks.com/languedocroussillon/montpellier/index.htm     

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Now if you do want to campaign about something how about litter and fly tipping. Yet another Brit caught before Christmas fly tipping on the side of the road outside Quillan, hope they locked him/her away and billed them for the cleanup.

Well honestly, bill boards for goodness sake; wish I had enough time and money to waste.

[/quote]

To other people the sight of billboards spoiling the environment is offensive, just as the sight of discarded rubbish is offensive.  I guess billboards don't kill wildlife (there again, neither do most discarded bottles and plastic bags) but many of them are plain ugly as well as illegal.  I don't spend my time campaigning against them - it isn't THAT important to me - but I can see the point of view of those who do and I applaud them for it. 

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Are they really comparable ? How long does it take to drive past these billboards ? 3 - 5 mins ? The farmer is paid for them and in turn that adds to the economy.

Rubbish/litter kicks around for ages and dealing with it costs the community.

Of course the law regarding these signs should be upheld but honestly I can think of a lot of things further up most peoples list of priorities than a few billboards. 

If this organisation win who compensates the farmer for loss of income ?

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Some time ago, a few years before we arrived in the North, the DDE around here, involved with other authorities, including several Maires, made a regulation for people such as us, that 3 boards were all that one commerce was allowed. This is still the legal amount for us and you can still only put 3 wherever you want to put them, private land or not.

We have some boards at the side of the road, more so these days so pre-reserved guests can easily find us (none now being paid for incidentally) The sizes, now this where time has made me forget the corrcet size allowed but if my memory serves me right, it was something like 90cm x 90cm approx. In the towns or communes (not large towns or cities) there were signs designed to be put on the towns posts and this become the norm pretty quickly. Large home made signs were frowned upon and some mysteriously went on walkabout.

The large hotel and resto companies, such as Ibis, Campanile, McDos and the rest, do appear to have their own regulations. What  appears to be acceptable and we see it all the time on entering most big towns, are the huge array of varying sized publicity boards offering places to stay and eat, plus tourist attractions. I guess they help people to find places but surely, there must be a better way of displaying all this before every town becomes another Las Vegas !! They did it for Chambres D'Hôtes but as ever in France, I suspect they won't fancy messing with the big players !

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Playing devil's advocate here, it takes no longer to drive past the rubbish than it does to drive past the billboards.  You don't have to deal with the rubbish - you could let it just lie there, like the illegal billboards.  I agree there are higher priorities, but surely that does not mean that people who would like to improve the appearance of the roadside and countryside are wrong campaign against illegal practices which harm the same.  I suppose no-one should be compensated for income derived from an illegal activity.

Here are just 2 of 45 illegal billboards that the PaysagesdeFrance group claim to have succeeded in having removed from Villars - good luck to them, I say.

I'm really surprised that a pressure group which is against an illegal activity which disfigures the landscape should be criticised for its actions.

[IMG]http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i26/cassiscassis/complete/Photo-Villars.jpg[/IMG]

With acknowledgment to the paysagesdefrance group.

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I gather that's precisely what this group is doing - reporting the

worst abuses of the illegal boards and trying to get them removed. 

I was really surprised to see a campaign group being told it is a waste of time and money to fight against an illegal activity which disfigures the landscape. 

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Now if you do want to campaign about something how about litter and fly

tipping. Yet another Brit caught before Christmas fly tipping on the

side of the road outside Quillan, hope they locked him/her away and

billed them for the cleanup. They need to register as resident to get a

permit for the local dump is their excuse
. Probably does not want to do

that because he/she may end up having to pay tax or something.

Register as a resident ??????? How exactly?

We have a maison de vacances, therefore are not "resident", it certainly did not stop us getting a card from the commune to use the local dechetterie.

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[quote user="Cassis"]I'm really surprised that a pressure group which is against an illegal activity which disfigures the landscape should be criticised for its actions.
[/quote]

Cassis, can I whisper something in your little sausagey ear?    I think it's all because the chap who started this campaign confessed to being English, and some people find that offensive, although I'm not sure why.   I married an English man, you know, they're not ALL bad!  [:)] 

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I haven't read all of this in detail, I admit, but I don't see that anyone has any great beef with Eric's (it is Eric, isn't it) plan, which is to make sure that regulations about big hoardings are observed. That is fair enough, if there are rules, then they ought to be followed, and it may take a pressure group to do that. The fact that he is English is a bit immaterial, after all one of the leading lights of the Rambler's Association in the UK is American, I believe. And if not, another one is Janet Street-Porter and surely no English person would claim her as a compatriot.

The grit in this particular bivalve came in when the OP was sidetracked into a tirade against new build houses, pavilions, - which unless I am getting this completely wrong, Eric doesn't campaign against, although he may well have Opinions.

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