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Article on Montauban publicity combat ............


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'Leclerc' and 'Netto' removed their enormous illegal signs this week in Montauban (4th april). For 15 years these two supermarkets were defying the law. Last year, local members of  'Paysages de France' officially notified the 'Préfet' - who took no action. A letter, threatening to bring the préfet before the administrative court and claiming 33 000 euros in damages if nothing was done to uphold the law, did the trick.

    In the past year, 5  giant totems, (Mc Do, Geant, Campanile, Leclerc, Netto) several 4x3m and all the publicity less than 100m from historical monuments have been removed from the town. A local petition to ban the unsightly 4x3m hoardings from the town stands at 2400 signatures. (ever rising).

  see the film 'Montauban et les 400 panneaux' , a 58 minutes documentary,  and numerous photos on        www.bap.propagande.org

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I saw a rather nice article on your work in Connexxions, in the last three months.  A friend lent me it.  Good work.  I admire your ability to be active in France.  I try but just don't do very well.  You are an excellent inspiration.  Nice short article in Decroissance as well.  I assume you have seen these, or I could send them.

All the best.  Don't let the critics get you down.

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Thankyou treize vents- and glad to see you read 'La Décroissance' ( I had Sophie Divry to stay last week and there'll be an article soon , probably  in next month's issue). I don't agree with everything written in La Décroissance, but they're nice people and they're sincere. I'm arranging a conference in Montauban in september  - Vincent Cheyney will speak about the movement.  Joining, or forming an 'asso' is a good  way to  meet people etc in France.

           I've been attacked 'for getting involved in french politics' in all three ex pat forums these past few months. British people have little or no comprehension of what it means to be european, it seems. I've been told several times to 'go home'  if I'm not happy here - by other British people!

            More supermarket signs are due for the chop here  in Montauban soon, following the spectacular 'démontage' of a  giant Leclerc sign spread over 8 pylons (12 m long and 15 m high) last week and a drastic lowering of a totem 'Netto'.

       

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I too have never really understood the antipapthy of the Brits to British people who criticise and are activists in France.  Having been both an immigrant and citizen in Britain, where I was also very active, I cannot figure out why people are not active where they live. But then there are many things I can't figure out.  There are some critical or liberal minded people on the forums though.  There is the language problem which I find a real barrier, maybe others too.  I can talk more or less, but not write.  But I guess lots of the people who immigrate here are mostly people after a quiet private rural life.  Or perhaps just earning aliving and supporting a family is hard enough, leaving little time for active citizen participation.  Fair enough.  I do find it harder here than in Britain.

On the other hand, I sometimes think you have had shabby treatment on forums.  Keep up the good work.

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My wife is French. She was born in France to Italian parents (both born in Italy). The rule in her family (in those pre EEC days) was to keep their heads down and not get noticed.

            Among the non EEC immigrant community in France this is still the rule.

 Thankfully, all EEC citizens have the right to linve, work and join a political party, demonstrate etc in the EEC country of their choice.

                Personally, I came to live and work in France before I was thirty,  (over 25 years ago) so yes, I do take offense when some Johnny come lately, probably only here for the cheap house prices and the booze, tells me to pack my bags and get off  'back home'. (my home is here!).

     

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I used to enjoy some conversations in England when I was able to mention that I was actually British, although my accent always gave away my origins within three words.  Or that I had lived in the same valley for 32 years.  One I really liked was "but you haven't lost your accent".  Surrounded as I was with people from all the regions of Britain who had not lost their accents (as well as a few who had learned a "better one") I always wondered what the heck they were talking about.  Being accepted as a immigrant is tough, no matter what country you are in.  I love the subtle differences though.  And as well, being able to understand the different sorts of racism or culturism that exist.  For example, as an American, I noticed (not among my freinds, of course?) how working class English people often really liked Americans just because they were Americans and Americans or American things were cool.  But the middle class English generally had the feeling that Americans were a little bit inferior, speaking a slightly off English, and not really having an culture or hisotry.  Also probably being stupid.  They would all deny this of course, but they would, wouldn't they.  I remember once in a Teaching English as aforeign language class how we were to spell out proverbs or sayings in phonetics,w hich the other students were to then pronounce.  We were to do this as we say it.  So when my turn came and the middle class English southern English had to pronounce the saying in Midwest American English, they really had a problem.  They just didn't want to do it.  The working class English, or northerners or Welsh or Scottish just did it.  This moment has stayed with me for years.  One reason I took our British citizenship is that it was obvious where my home was, and I had no desire ever, for any reason, silly or not, to be sent "back".  Thanks goodness for Euorpe, so we can stay in France if we want to.

The French on the other hand.....

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Alors! You wrote 'on the other hand, the French'.......

Which is exactly the sort of generalisation  that you were tired of experiencing in England............ie, all americans are loud, brash, stupid, incult and warmongering.....

     Personally, I believe that the worst and the best musical and cutural trends and movements in general since the war (2nd) have all had their origins in the USA , and the worst and best people live there.

 

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[quote user="Paysages de France"]

Alors! You wrote 'on the other hand, the French'.......

Which is exactly the sort of generalisation  that you were tired of experiencing in England............ie, all americans are loud, brash, stupid, incult and warmongering.....

     Personally, I believe that the worst and the best musical and cutural trends and movements in general since the war (2nd) have all had their origins in the USA , and the worst and best people live there.

 

[/quote]

I think I got misunderstood, it happens now and again, due to some combination of bad writing and bad reading.  I thought I had indicated, even in that paragraph that I could distinguish between various kinds of English folks.  I can also do that with the French.  For example, I live in the sticks, surrounded by true France Profond Midi Folk.  They are different to the middle class, more educated, more open people I sometimes meet in Montpellier, who are often also Midi Folk (who are in turn different to other kinds of French).  One can of course be open and not middle class, and not educated, as are some of my pals here in the sticks.  I guess what I am saying is that one can and should do both kinds of talk, the sweeping generalisations, and the specific particular understandings.  I like both.  And I guess I think that an appropriate description comes from dancing with the two.  I dislike, just about equally, people who say everyone is a unique individual and you can't say anything about groups... and those who slot people neatly into groups and forget the diversity of the individuals. 

There was nothing I was "tired of" in Britain, in the sense that I would try to leave it to avoid those bad things.  I rather liked living there, had no intention of moving really.  What did I say "tired of"?   If I did, I was not writing well.  It was just an amusing and fun to play with constant reaction of the two groups of English people.  Its something like what  I could often share, and often do share, with people who are "outsiders" or "inferior" when they open their mouth.  Here its the Midi accent that I know about in my area.  Open your mouth elsewhere, especially amongst the Parisian middle classes and their ilk, and many French people immediately have a flood of images that overwhelm them.  Those images are usually not that the speaker is bright, creative, innovative, intelligent, cultivated and so forth.  At least that's what my pals say. 

My incomplete sentence about "the French" would have carried on to discuss the reaction of "the French" to immigrants, language, accent, colour and so forth.  I think, crudely put, the English are more open than the French.  Although there are exceptions.

As for your last sentence, I could not agree more.  Although I do like to remember a few political innovations and some cultural innovations that came from Europe as well.  But in general, the USA is a country of excess, as you point out.  Nice place to visit, but I would not want to live there, unless I were rich and healthy.  And sadly, I will never be rich.  Give me Europe any day for a civilised life.  With global communications a piece of cake, we can pick up on the good stuff from the USA quite easily.  Its a shame they also manage to impose almost everywhere (some French resist a bit), through their excellent imperial practices, the other bad things. 

In your work, did you ever find anyone who wrote about the history of billboards?  Advertising?  Did the USA invent them or did someone else?

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I don't think your writing's bad TV! 

Your posts are always very well explained and have lots of interesting details.  Even when OPs are sometimes a bit aggressive (as I may have been re: French proffessional cylcists[:$]) you always remain courteous and continue to open up the subject in question without getting on the defensive as so many of us do on the forum.

I think you are an intelligent poster and I always enjoy reading you. I wasn't aware that you were an American until this thread and along with Lori and PossumGirl I find you to be very pleasant representatives for your homeland[:)]

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Merci Twinkle.  But I am also British, spent more of my life there, have the passport and loads of T Shirts.  I am a serial immigrant I guess.  And soon might be a thrice citizen.  In fact, I am actually basically "European", half Bulgarian, quarter Irish, quarter German, lived adult life in Britain, married a French woman, son is Portuguese/German.  Now I live in France.  I don't even like America much, and could not ever live there on account of health problems and the totally uncivilised health system they have.  Although I do retain a special sentiment for Detroit, home of Motown Records.  You are right, some Americans, like some French people and some Brits are quite nice folks.  But no Brits from the Southeast, I am from Yorkshire. [;-)]

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I'm quarter Irish and 3/4 Welsh married to a French man and my daughter is Welsh/French.  I too have lived in a different country to that of my birthplace for 18 years now (France) - I still feel very Welsh but also very settled in France and yes - I consider it my home now as well.

I love Motown too! [:)]

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[quote user="TreizeVents"]But no Brits from the Southeast, I am from Yorkshire. [;-)]
[/quote]

I am British from the south east and have always tried to be a nice person. But the odds are obviously stacked against me in the prejudice stakes, so I shall revert to type and just tell you to **** off you bigoted ******* Tyke ****.

[:D][:P]

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I'm from south east England  - Why can't you just take people as they come? My present friends include a mexican, a lot of french, a couple of English and even two 'etats uniens'.

 Read the book 'Les Coulisses de la Grande Distribution' by Christian Jacquiau (éditions Albin Michel) to find out about the origins of the 'grande didtribution' in France (world leader). The book starts. "..1949, Edouard Leclerc drives a small truck on the superb little roads in Brittany...soon, he opens his first shop- a small 'épicerie' of 50m²......"

" Intermarché", it is revealed in the book, is virtually a sect.

 This book is terrifying....."Les pousseurs de chariots à roulettes ont laissé se mettre en place une machine infernale...largement responsable du regne de la "mal bouffe", de la standardisation de la consommation et de l'appauvrissement économique".

 The billboarding practises in France are directly linked to the economic war that the major groups are continually embarked on in France. Modern day advertising tecniques has its origins in the nazi propaganda practises developed in the 1930's.

 Some  of the staff of Goebbels propaganda department were offered jobs in the advertising industry in the USA after the war............

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[quote user="marina"]

[quote user="TreizeVents"]But no Brits from the Southeast, I am from Yorkshire. [;-)]

[/quote]

I am British from the south east and have always tried to be a nice person. But the odds are obviously stacked against me in the prejudice stakes, so I shall revert to type and just tell you to **** off you bigoted ******* Tyke ****.

[:D][:P]

[/quote]

Oh dear.  I guess I have to admit I have a few freinds from the Southeast.  Some of my very best ones.  And even that I love London.  And also to claim, although obviously Marina didn't get it, that I was making something of a joke.  Where are those smileys when you need them.  Oh dear, I DID use a smiley, maybe Marina was making a joke.  So hard this email stuff.

I was trying to say something.  I guess it was not said so well. 

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Hi Paysage,

I will not give you a list of the various nationalities and regions from which my friends come and have come in my life.  It is not a competition.  I have been an immigrant twice, so I might have some experience.  In my view, people are never "as they come", they have a history, habits, origins, appearances, genders, careers, are poor or rich, and all that has a great bearing on "who they are" and how they behave.  Much of that is well-hidden on first sight.  You have to work to find it out.  There is no such thing as "as they come".  That is just plain naive and simplistic.  Unless you are talking about superficial chat or passing the time, in which case, I do take people "as they come".   Perhaps you and others "like you" are free of prejudices, prejudgements, stereotypes, preferences, experiences and so forth.  I am not.  You are a better a man than I am, if you have such an ability to take each person equally, as if they are not different, as if they are not unique, as if all is apparent.   So I guess you have to practice on me, take me as I am, and stop grumbling that I am different.  You seem a pretty irascible person yourself, on email.  You might be really freindly in person or even more irascible.  

I guess I have had a more restricted experience of people than you, as most people I know have many prejudices, and make judgements all the time.  Some are aware of it, and some claim to be "beyond all that".  I have never met one of those people, the ones without prejudice, just people that are kidding themselves and don't really look within.  I think that if you are aware of your prejudices it is better than pretending you don't have any.  Certainly around here, you don't find too many big fans of rich Parisians.  Or Dutch.  For some reason that I have never fully grasped, the Dutch come bottom of the list around here.  I have heard this loads of times. Not the Germans or Engish or Danes, but the Dutch.  They say that the Dutch "keep themselves to themselves" and that they "bring their own food" and hire their own people to do work.  Me, I have no idea, I have never met a Dutch person here, although their cars are in the supermarket car park.  I would have guessed that Belgians or Germans or even English would have a worse reputation.  But no, its the Dutch.

I am sad aobut it, but admit that I have very few "close mates" who are French, and maybe none of them are "really" close.  OK, one guy in Montpellier, but we speak in English.  I used to think it was a problem of language, but my wife also has the same problem, as do many immmigrants whom I have questioned closely.  I cannot say anything about how various kinds of French people react to immigrants.  The ones I know admit that their closest freinds are very seldom anyone excpet fluent French speakers.  Totally fluent.  Most speak in terms of one"foreign" close freind.  There is a huge difference between a close good freind, a neighbour, someone you work with or are in an organisation with, and an acquaintance.  Maybe it varies by region.  Or where you live in the region.  Or maybe by whether you work or not.  Or have kids in schools.  My freinds who live in the valley (small villages, hameaux) have a much easier time than I do, living in the town. They also find it much easier to become close to people who are in a mixed couple, than a couple which is all French.  I have asked several people as I found the problem very bothersome after a year or two.  I think it is also cultural.  The French and I often do not share cultural and linguistic references, even though they know some songs and movies and so forth.  I find it easier to communicate quickly and subtly with English speakers.  I did not expect this at all.  I hardly had much to do with English speakers when I first came here, but now I seek them out.  A real shame.   Very disappointing.  But NOT entirely a personality defect.  There is something there.

I know a fair bit about big food production and distribution.  The story is much the same in Britain, as you probably know.  Jacquiau came to town last year to give a chat and he was great.  The Social Forum I started had workshops on that topic, even led to starting an AMAP.  Can you give me any guidance about where I might find references to Nazis beginning modern advertising. Sounds plausible, but where can I read about it.  I know the Americans were doing it earlier, but I guess "modern" might be a matter of definition.  You have a good source?  Maybe even one on the web, as I don't buy too many books these days.

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Paysages de France

Stop changing the title of this thread, it's annoying, I think each time someone (else) has added a new thread when instead it's an old one being continually dragged up!

If it's a new topic start a new thread if not, don't, just add to the same one with the same title then we all know to avoid it if we have already read it and were not interested in it in the first place!

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 Or are you a  policeman/woman, or just someone whose aim in life is to boss people around?

  An old thread/topic? The subject  (the desecration of the French countryside) surely merits a few months discussion, no? Or is your attention span so reduced  that you need to be continually zapping from one topic to another.

Are you more than 15 year's old?

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My point is this, please leave the title as it was at the start so that everyone who is interested in the demontage issue knows that is what it is about, changing the title to 'are you a school teacher' will hardly get you an army of followers. 

You can discuss one subject for years if you want but don't go drifting off on to another subject in the same thread and think that's ok as long as you change the title.  

For a new topic just start a new thread, if everyone did what you've done on this thread no one would be able to follow the forum at all, simple really. 

The forum works when the subject of a thread and title match, if you keep changing it no one knows what the topic is...  That is why the moderators are always asking people to stick to the original topic, not sure why they have yet to jump on you but your time will come..

Any moderators out there who can better explain my point, please be ready to called a traffic warden though

Just for clarity this thread has had all of these titles:

Article on Montauban publicity combat ............

New 'démontages'

good reading ........

Johnny come lately..........

I like the french.......

 On the other hand the french' you wrote..........

 I'm from the south - east..........

 On the other hand the french' you wrote.........

 Bap

 Are you a school teacher?

 

See my point yet....

 

 

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