Double Taxation forms

[minnie]

Having received State Pension for the first time in 2011 I've just completed the Double Taxation form for my OH. This basically is to reclaim the PAYE income tax he's paid in UK and now having to pay in France.

Do we just take these forms to our local tax office and leave them there? I've visions of them getting lost in the ether and would welcome other people's experiences please

[NormanH]

If you mean the France Individual form the  correct procedure is explained in English on the first page

And in French on the first page of the French section

Veuillez signer le

formulaire anglais en bas de la première page et

apposer-y votre

cachet officiel avant de l'envoyer via le service des

impôts

correspondant au Centre des Impôts des Non Résidents (CINR)

TSA

10010, 10 rue du Centre, 93465 Noisy-le-Grand Cédex afin

qu'il le

transmette à HM Revenue and Customs Ty Glas Road,

Llanishen, Cardiff,

Royame-Uni, CF14 5YA

My tax office refused to sign it until I had declared the 2011 income and had the Avis to show for it, since they argued that they cant sign to say I will  declare in the future, only that I have  declared in the past. Effectively   I had to have the wrong tax code from April 2011 until now, which I hope will be adjusted

I then took it in together with the Avis and they reluctantly signed it and gave it back to me which isn’t at all what is supposed to happen, but anyway I sent it off to Cardiff myself and am waiting

I believe this also happened to another poster who got his affairs sorted in record time so I am living in hope

http://services.completefrance.com/forums/completefrance/cs/forums/2770803/ShowPost.aspx

[idun]

Minnie I am confused........which tax office?  The french won't actually give you back any payments made in the UK, but they will reduce your income tax due. Would you actually take it to the UK?

What I do know is that the UK state pension is only taxable in France for french residents.

Yes, I am very confused.

[Daft Doctor]

I am in a similar boat, only with my NHS pension.  When I requested a NT tax code from HMRC having submitted my P85, they sent me out the France Individual forms with what amounted to a 'V' sign.  If I suffer the same fate as Norman H it will be November next year before I have both filed my first French tax return as a resident and received an Avis for 2012 showing what I should pay.  Add various inevitable delays and it will most likely be April 2014 before I am granted said NT code, no joke since my NHS pension and tax on it in the UK is considerable (and higher than the marginal rate I will pay on it in France). 

Now then, I have submitted tax returns to our local tax office in Sallanches in each of the last 4 years as a non-resident (having a leaseback apartment here) so I'm half in a mind to try submitting the France Individual form now or at worst waiting to receive my Avis d'Imposition for 2011, which should come soon and be sent to me here at my French address.  I know that the non-residents tax form sent to Noisy le Grand in June stated that I became a resident for tax purposes in France on 12th May 2012, so that may or may not help.  Otherwise, I like Norman will just have to pay double tax until it eventually comes out in the wash.

[Gardian]

Our experience with the France Individual form 9 months ago was excellent.

I took the completed document in to our local Impots and the guy there read the thing solemnly, said that he'd never seen anything like it before, but said that he was happy to sign it and send it off because he could see that we had been imposable in France for years.

He was as good as his word. After 8 weeks (with Christmas as part of that, so a bit less), I rang Cardiff just to see if they'd received it. They were able to tell me immediately that they had got it within 3 weeks of me leaving it with our local Impots. The assessment had just been done and we'd receive the money direct in to our a/c within 14 days. It did. 

Norman's experience was probably just unfortunate and I was probably just lucky, but this process isn't hard and there's no reason why it should take ages.  BTW, the P85 process does seem to take much longer.

[minnie]

Pleased to hear of people's differing experiences so that I know what to expect. Idun, I don't want the French to reimburse me but the form explains that you have to take it to the local impots for a signature to show that the tax has been paid in France. I trust that this explains everything. Thanks all for your contributions.

[idun]

minnie, our problems are always the absolute inverse of everyone else's....... and we do have them!

For anyone resident in France and having paid tax for several years, then I would have hoped that they would have simply got the form signed immediately...... as they should have done in your case NormanH, it would have been proper and reasonable and not too much to ask.

Anyone just arriving ofcourse, it is a little different.

 

 

[NormanH]

[quote user="minnie"]Pleased to hear of people's differing experiences so that I know what to expect. Idun, I don't want the French to reimburse me but the form explains that you have to take it to the local impots for a signature to show that the tax has been paid in France. I trust that this explains everything. Thanks all for your contributions.[/quote]

Yes so it has to have already been paid and you have to be able to show that. That was the point my tax office was making...

[Mac]

We filled our double taxation forms and took them to our local tax office together with our french tax forms in April. (This is the first year we have been eligable for french tax having moved here in April 2011) After about 2 months we received the double taxation forms back from out local tax office all signed and stamped with a covering letter asking us to forward them to th UK tax authorities(I understand the tax people used to send them on themselves but no longer ) Sent these off to Cardiff and about 3 weeks later received all the tax back for Tax year ending April 2012. About i month ago received a letter from the tax authorities (UK) saying they were refunding all tax paid since April 2012 and also a NT tax code was allocated. Just waiting now for our french tax demand (done I believe in alphabetical order-our surname starts with a Y) I have to say that the whole  experience (so far) has been excellent. Have we just been lucky?

[suein56]

[quote user="Mac"]Have we just been lucky?[/quote]

Yes; in my view. Or perhaps the new system ie you receiving your stamped forms back from your local tax office and then you sending them onto the UK, really works much more efficiently than the old system.

OH and I did everything by the (old) book and our refunds took 20 months to arrive.

I have just started the process off on behalf of a friend - enclosed the forms with her tax declaration in May - and, so far, we have heard not a tweet from anyone. Obviously our tax office - huge though it is - is behind the times - quite literally.

Sue

[Boiling a frog]

We had no problem whatsoever,except from the UK end ,who made a right mess of our tax codes prior to us submitting the France Individual Form .We handed this form in to the impots in the Charente together with our Tax return and about 6 weeks later received a full refund from the UK.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Gardian"]

BTW, the P85 process does seem to take much longer.

[/quote]

I think that there may be a bit of confusion here over two different processes, but I'm more than happy to be shot down if I'm wrong (but I suspect not).

There's the P85 or R85 (whatever its called), which is the process for notifying HMRC that you are no longer UK resident and that you are now imposable in France. This would normally be instigated just as soon as one arrived over here in order to reclaim any tax paid for any years prior to making the claim and of course after one emigrated from the UK. The result is a tax code of 'NT' for any occupational pensions that one is in receipt of and a refund of any tax paid from HMRC. This process is normally quite slow, as much as anything else, because it relies on one's Tax Office in France being able to verify that you really are a tax payer over here - the timing is obvious. In the UK, the process also seems to be dealt with by Nottingham (or at least it was a few years ago) and they seem to have had an historical backlog. Typical time to process: 12 months-ish.

The 'France Individual' form is quite different. It has nothing to do with occupational pensions: its function is to ensure that your state pension is wiped off of your UK coding so that you are only taxed in there on your occupational pension income. It would normally only be relevant for people who derive UK taxable income, i.e. former Govt employees, teachers, etc. This process seems to be processed in Cardiff and as has been said, is quite speedy, partly because they just seem to be quite quick there and partly because you have normally been here for a while already and can easily & instantly be verified as a registered French taxpayer (by this I mean imposable in France - whether you are actually liable to pay any tax is another matter).

The 'French end' of both processes is basically the same: fill in the form, take it to one's local Impots, get them to sign & send it off.  Then wait.

Then you're in to making your French tax declaration, which is quite another story and on which there's a multitude of postings!!![blink]

 

   

[Daft Doctor]

I beg to differ Gardian.  After I submitted my P85 I left things for a few months then wrote to HMRC asking for a NT code on my occupational (NHS) pension.  It was they who wrote to me saying I couldn't be exempted from UK tax on the pension and savings, etc until a signed France-Individual form was returned by the French authorities, they even attached a copy to the letter they sent out for me to forward to the Impots.  I'm really not sure what the purpose of P85 is in all honesty, it seems to be the way of telling HMRC that you've gone, but it seems that the France Individual form is what they need as proof that you're telling the truth!

 

[NormanH]

And some  French offices won't sign that form until after you have made at least one declaration and received the Avis, hence the delays that Sue and I have experienced.

As ever it seems to differ from place to place, with the standard procedure as outlined on the document not always being followed.

This may be because he France Individual is a HMRC sourced form not a European one, and that PAYE and French system have a built-in difference of chronology

[minnie]

Though I'd give you the result on this one. Took the forms to the local impots who stamped one and gave it back to me to send to Cardiff. I'm well impressed with the result in that we've received the refund into our bank for 2011 from Revenue & Customs and had tax code adjusted to No Tax for this year. A real result....Thanks all.