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'Certificate of overseas residence' vs form 'France Individual' - confused!


Daft Doctor
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Although resident in France since May 2012, as I have significant ongoing UK property income I will be obliged to file a UK tax return on an ongoing basis.  I have permission to receive my UK property income without tax taken off under the non-resident landlord scheme, so will have some tax to pay every year.  I filled in a form P85 soon after arriving in France and was sent out a France Individual (FI) form when I asked for a NT tax code on my NHS pension. As I haven't filed a french tax return as a resident yet (that will happen in 2013 on 2012 income), I can't get the FI form filled in and signed(have read previous experiences, seems at very earliest that would be on filing my French return personally at the local Impots). 

My UK accountant has now told me know that in order to avoid dual taxation on my NHS pension and any investment income, I will need to complete pages SA109 (Residence, remittance basis, etc) of my 2012-13 return and attach a completed copy of Helpsheet 304, which itemises what income is being omitted from the UK tax return under any DTA and what tax has already been paid on this income at source.  This acts to reduce the overall UK liability under self-assessment and so avoid dual taxation more indirectly than by receiving a direct refund from HMRC.  Helpsheet 304 then however says that a 'certificate of overseas residence' needs to be included in all cases, confirming that the income omitted from the UK return is/was taxable in France.  

I am a little confused at how if at all a 'certficate of overseas residence' differs from a form FI?  I assumed the FI was forwarded directly by the impots as soon as you could persuade them to sign it, so allowing issue of a NT code on pension income and (presumably) access to savings interest without UK tax taken off, along with a refund as appropriate of any UK tax paid at source?  My accountant and this Helpsheet 304 seems to be suggesting a different way of avoiding dual taxation if you always fill in a UK return, but I don't know what is meant by 'certificate of overseas residence' in relation to France.  Given how form FI is usually dealt with, you can't presumably hang on to it until you file your UK tax return.  I wondered if anyone out there has declared their change of residency via pages SA109 and Helpsheet 304 rather than or aswell as via form FI.  If anyone has that experience, what was the certificate of overseas residence that you forwarded to HMRC?  Sorry for waffling, but any insight much appreciated.  [:D]

 

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Not a direct answer, but apparently some people have managed to persuade their local French tax office to sign the FI form before having declared the income in France.

Mine wouldn't, but some might so it would be worth at least a try. Go in with the form and act ignorant ...

This would get round the need to go down the alternative route you mention.

In any case, if they agree to sign it seems to work much  more quickly if you send the signed form to Cardiff your self, rather than following the instructions on the form.

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Not a reply but a comment:   Our experience is that nothing will persuade the main UK banks (and old Building Societies) that they should pay interest on saving gross!  There is an Inland Revenue form, similar to the one declaring that " I am not a tax payer", saying effectively "I am not a UK taxpayer" which I was told some years ago (by HMRC) the banks will not use!  I am an accountant so had phoned HMRC as I knew about the form.  At that time we had been told by Nationwide that "we don't deduct the tax - the Inland Revenue do it" - I was speechless - and this just shows the level of ignorance sometimes in the banks.

You just include the taxed interest on your self-assessment form and the money comes back.  We always put a note to the effect that it is taxed in France and have had no problems, although that may well be because we file the S. A. form online so the repayment is automatic!

Mrs H

PS One person we know used the "I am not a taxpayer" form but this is clearly not what one is supposed to do, especially as they were paying tax in France.

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We went to our mairie and asked for a form to prove that we lived in our property on a permenent basis. They gave us a form signed by the mayor which we forwarded to the tax authorities in the UK. That seemed to be what they wanted as we received our tax refund about a month later together with a NT tax code.We also have a property in the UK that we rent out (just the one) and so also must fill out a tax form yearly
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Large UK partnerships that operate both in the UK and in other countries quite often have to satisfy the non-UK tax authorities that specified members of the partnership are resident in the UK. If you have access to a reasonably senior UK tax inspector who deals with the partnership's tax affairs, you can ask him to certify that Mr X (or Miss Y) is a resident of the UK for the purposes of the tax treaty between the UK and the country involved. Some non-UK countries like the certificate to be in English, others in their own language, and some in both. Sometimes the document will specify which tax years it refers to ("Mr X was a resident of the UK for the tax year ending on 5th April 2012").

Some non-UK tax authorities will do the same for British ex-pats who are paying tax as residents in their own country. The normal procedure was to have the text of the certificate ready-prepared, and ask the tax official to put it onto his office paper and sign it. The trouble comes in finding a tax official who is sufficiently well established for his signature to carry weight, and who is not so much of a jobsworth as to refuse to sign the document.

My guess is that you are not likely to succeed in getting an alternative certificate of residence here in France where the form France-Individual is reasonably well known by French tax officials. But there's no harm in trying. It will not be something that the man at the local Bureau des Impots will know anything about, so you would have to provide him with the text of the open letter that you wish him to sign. The more specific it is, the more likely you'll succeed. But if you haven't yet filed a tax return he is most likely to say that your status as a French tax resident isn't something he has any official knowledge of.

[edit] I didn't bother with a P85 as I think its only purpose is to get HMRC to send you a form France Individual (which you can just as easily download from their website). But it wasn't until the France-Individual was certified and sent back to HMRC that they issued the NT code for my pension. And looking again at your original post, I suspect that for France, the Form France Individual IS the certificate of residence that HMRC want. Other countries may do things differently.

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