New ruling on Winter fuel allowance

[POB]

[quote user="idun"]I am against any non residents getting it.

 [/quote]

Just to satisfy my curiosity why are you against non residents getting it?

[sid]

I think you'll find that Idun has a thing about people having made the choice to live elsewhere, although I could be proved wrong. I can't follow the logic myself.

[idun]

[quote user="POB"][quote user="idun"]I am against any non residents getting it.

 [/quote]

Just to satisfy my curiosity why are you against non residents getting it?

[/quote]

Why, you ask. Many reasons. It was paid in the UK, because of the weather in the UK and the heating bills that people have there. It was never paid because someone choses to live in a hot country that may be a bit nippy in winter........OR very very cold as per where I used to live. We chose and assumed.

The french have allocation chauffage for pensioners, but there are conditions attached, IF people are living in a situation reguliere and need this money in France, then surely they should use the french system. I don't get it, this clinging to the UK for benefits after having moved.

It still strikes me that for all the french pay adult handicapped people and retired people allowances if they have handicaps too...... IF they leave France for another EU country, do they HAVE TO KEEP PAYING, because, it is rather beyond my imagination that they would. Maybe I am wrong, or doesn't France have to keep paying and paying, just the UK that ends up with that particular burden?  I wish someone would answer that particular question. It may feel 'fairer' to me, if they did.

[sid]

[quote user="idun"][quote user="POB"][quote user="idun"]I am against any non residents getting it.

 [/quote]

Just to satisfy my curiosity why are you against non residents getting it?

[/quote]

Why, you ask. Many reasons. It was paid in the UK, because of the weather in the UK and the heating bills that people have there. It was never paid because someone choses to live in a hot country that may be a bit nippy in winter........OR very very cold as per where I used to live. We chose and assumed.

The french have allocation chauffage for pensioners, but there are conditions attached, IF people are living in a situation reguliere and need this money in France, then surely they should use the french system. I don't get it, this clinging to the UK for benefits after having moved.

It still strikes me that for all the french pay adult handicapped people and retired people allowances if they have handicaps too...... IF they leave France for another EU country, do they HAVE TO KEEP PAYING, because, it is rather beyond my imagination that they would. Maybe I am wrong, or doesn't France have to keep paying and paying, just the UK that ends up with that particular burden?  I wish someone would answer that particular question. It may feel 'fairer' to me, if they did.

[/quote]

Yes, it gets VERY cold where we live, actually much colder than the Peak District where we used to live in UK, and on that basis I think we would come within scope of a properly administered benefit.

So, we're not talking about French people and their entitlements, so it doesn't matter what they do; we're talking about UK citizens getting the same benefits as those living in UK wherever they are if they need them. Means tested by all means.

The WFA is only a small amount and I've never had it anyway, but it's the principle that counts.

You made an exception earlier in the thread about pensions, and didn't answer how you arrived at that; you would allow some things but not others. No logic.

 

[Russethouse]

Sid, if it's the principal, and the principal people here seem to espouse is that 'I paid in so I should get out' then it should be applied equally across the board. It isn't, otherwise people with savings would be allowed to keep them instead of using them to pay for their care, when others who have not saved get that same care free of charge.

Also I think the idea that the reason the ruling was changed is because someone arriving in the UK from some far flung place would qualify needs questioning.......how would they? Indeed given that the Uk is pretty difficult to get into from some far flung places, just how does that work ?

[idun]

What can I say, people up sticks and move away from their homeland and still want to be classed as if they live there? How far does this go, this being classed in some vague way as living in Britain......... could it go as far as not adhering to french laws because they don't suit  or concern expats as they're british???? Because as you said Sid, we're not talking about french people, and it doesn't matter what they do.

Just how far do people need to move before they cut the umbical and say say 'I moved' and in the country I chose to live in, it is XYand Z and not Blighty......... et j'assume!

Logic about pensions?

 

Well the way deductions are made from salaries in France is very logical. They are a clear, showing entitlement and future entitlement. There is no umbrella notion of National Insurance which covers what exactly?..... does anyone know if they are actually paying into a future pension...... or just the 'idea' of a future pension, as it covers so much including health care and other benefits.

 

In France, a payslip is issued which bears no resemblance to anything I had ever seen before and I was a wages clerk for a couple of years. It is usually a full page and can be  two pages long. However, one can see what every deduction is for:-

1) state health care 2) unemployment 3) bouching the trou in the health system 4) pensions and then there are all the other things that are paid in France specifically. Not only does one see what the employee pays, but also the employer for every single one of these deductions.

And a few years prior to retirement the CNAV send out a letter and statement showing every annual salary for one's french working life to date on which the proper contributions have been made and then when the pension is due to be paid, a futher up to date statement is issued and everything is finalised and the pension is paid.

 

It isn't vague, the money has been paid in specifically for a pension and is then paid. There is nothing wrong with that. It is very very clear.

So yes, the payments have been made for a french pension and the french government  should pay the french pension no matter where a person lives.

I really cannot talk for NI contributions.......... I would like to know how much of the 10% ish of a salary they receive, really  goes towards pensions, very little methinks!

 

What we are talking about are extra allowances. And they were brought in for residents. As you said, colder where you live now. As it happens now I 've moved back to the NE of England, my winters are generally milder than they were in the Alpes, even with the bad winters we have had. I liked my cold alpine winters..... but if I moved back to France after having been in receipt of the winter fuel allowance........ I would know where I was moving to and should not be able to take it.

 

[ebaynut]

FYI, National insurance (NI) goes towards benefits a person receives from the government. Pensions, job seekers allowance, child benefit, incapacity benefit, sickness DLA, working tax credits etc, it does not pay for the National health system which is funded from general taxation. ( VAT etc)

[Boiling a frog]

It seems that Idun wants to cherry pick the EU legislation ,only agreeing with certain bits, such as those from which he benefits(freedom of movement, freedom to work in another EU country,) while disagreeing with other parts.

As far as Social Security is concerned

The four main principles

You are covered by the legislation of one country at a time so you only pay contributions in one country. The decision on which country's legislation applies to you will be made by the social security institutions. You cannot choose.

You have the same rights and obligations as the nationals of the country where you are covered. This is known as the principle of equal treatment or non-discrimination.

When you claim a benefit, your previous periods of insurance, work or residence in other countries are taken into account if necessary.

If you are entitled to a cash benefit from one country, you may generally receive it even if you are living in a different country. This is known as the principle of exportability.

I wonder what parts Idun agrees with and which he does not.

Obviously he does not agree with the principal of exportability ,or is it only in respect of WFA and not such things as invalidity benefit, unemployment benefit etcetc.

[Russethouse]

One hopes your understanding of all the rules and regs you have been quoting are better than your observational skills here: Idun is a female :-) :-):-)

[Rabbie]

I am with Idun on this one. I agrre with her that there is no logical reason why British specific benefits should be exportable. No UK citizen is forced to emigrate and they should take the possible loss of benefits into account when they decide to do so

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Russethouse"]One hopes your understanding of all the rules and regs you have been quoting are better than your observational skills here: Idun is a female :-) :-):-)[/quote]

That explains everything, it make sense now.

[sid]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="Russethouse"]One hopes your understanding of all the rules and regs you have been quoting are better than your observational skills here: Idun is a female :-) :-):-)[/quote] That explains everything, it make sense now.[/quote]

"Like!"   [:D][:D]

[idun]

Cherry pick moi?

Most things in life are cherry picked.

And we, well, the good old NHS, free to all permanent residents........ apart from us. So a bit of cherry picking that goverments do and I have nothing to do with at all.

Re National Insurance, well I have yet to read where it does not say that it goes towards the NHS, which as far as I was aware is health care. I realise that taxes also go towards the NHS.

[idun]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"] That explains everything, it make sense now.[/quote]

Good

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="idun"]

Cherry pick moi?

Most things in life are cherry picked.

And we, well, the good old NHS, free to all permanent residents........ apart from us. So a bit of cherry picking that goverments do and I have nothing to do with at all.

Re National Insurance, well I have yet to read where it does not say that it goes towards the NHS, which as far as I was aware is health care. I realise that taxes also go towards the NHS.

[/quote]

I suspect that you are either cherry picking or being disingenuous. If you are a UK citizen and return to the UK to live permanently then your health care is covered by the NHS.

Obviously if you are not a UK citizen ,and/or have not lived in the UK for most of ones life and/or arrive in the UK with a medical condition requiring immediate treatment and or have no proof of a permanant address then, quite rightly one will be treated as a health tourist and will be asked for further proofs of eligibility.

I take it you would also ban French residents(but UK citizens who have retired) from obtaining an S1 from the UK and make them pay into the French system

[ebaynut]

You may find this link interesting. It tells you why you pay National Insurance, and what it goes towards.

[POB]

Social benefits could be obtained, potentially, from your Country of Birth, your Country of Nationality, your Country of residence, or the Country to which you pay taxes.  In your opinion Idun, and others, you should look to your Country of residence and I might have some sympathy with that view but, in my case I was born in England, I remain English/British I pay my direct taxes in England, but, I live in France.  I would not feel comfortable taking benefits from France without paying direct taxes.  In my case it is the British Government who, as you quaintly put it, will not sever the umbilical cord.

[Russethouse]

BAF:if I remember correctly Idun gets her healthcare via the French government,

[John Brown]

[quote user="Russethouse"]the idea that the reason the ruling was changed is because someone arriving in the UK from some far flung place would qualify needs questioning.......how would they? Indeed given that the Uk is pretty difficult to get into from some far flung places, just how does that work ?[/quote]

It works because the only two criteria to qualify are being over 60 by the second week in September and being ordinarily resident in the UK

If say, a parent of a person who's settled in the UK decides to move over to join their family and declare that they intend to stay they will qualify for WFA. IMHO a third criteria should have been that they must be able to qualify to receive an OAP.

[Hereford]

This topic has generated so much hot air I doubt any of us will need a winter fuel payment.   Calm down!

I cannot believe that anyone would move to another country, or not, based on whether they would get this benefit, it is not that big. We certainly didn't.

Some benefits do seem to come from the country of residence (not pension paying country). APA is certainly available in France to immigrants, as we have recently discovered on my mother's behalf.   So long , it seemed, as one had not arrived "the week before" - although we never discovered  how long was necessary (perhaps the 5 years as health care can be).  However we have also seen one person getting the heating "oil" benefit here in France as well as a UK WFA.

As for payment of NI to get a state pension: in the UK so long as one pays the minimum NI per year (the amount changes upwards each year) then after 30 years one qualifies for a state pension, less than 30 years gets you a smaller pension.  The money is not "built up" at all, current pensions are paid from current NI.

Mrs H

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="Russethouse"]BAF:if I remember correctly Idun gets her healthcare via the French government,[/quote]

That is perfectly normal. if one has worked in an EU country and in receipt of a pension from that country then it is that country which funds the health care for the person ,even if they move to another EU country ,so why the big mystery. She surely does not expect the UK to pay for her health care when their is a system in place called an S1 so that France pays for her health care.

So on the one hand we have someone who has stated that the country of residence should be the governing criteria as to what benefits are received, but on the other hand is in receipt of a benefit from a country where she no longer resides.

Strange.

[idun]

As I have said before, we have to have a french S1(E121). We pay cotisations in France and get an S1 which we have give to Newcastle.  When the french were slow in issueing it, Newcastle kept calling us, asking where it was. So we have to pay to be in the NHS. So we pay, we pay Peter to pay Paul.

NOW, UK pensioners who move to France, do not pay any NI contributions on their pensions in order to get an S1(E121), the UK government simply pay up..... the french government has us paying them first. So as I said, we pay.  Would we be entitled to any other benefits from France because we pay in France...... frankly I would never ask.......... I don't live there any more, but more importantly I'm not french either, I am english born and bred.

The rules pertaining to taxes on pensions, public, state and private appear to be the same throughout europe. French public sector pensions remain taxable in France, if the person moves to another country as do UK public sector pensions if the person leaves the UK. The other pensions are taxed in the country of residence. But that is income tax and we were talking about NI and cotisations.

 

Disingenous......... BaF, you really have made some disgraceful, shameful comments, about women initially and then about me...... disingenuous you suggested, or was that a proper statement? I believe means that you doubt my honesty and believe I am being deceitful. No I'm not. My comments on here are completely honest, I have my opinions, which like most people on the planet can be paradoxal, because life is never straightforward, ever..........But I don't do wind ups........ do you?

I'm very straightforward, the only thing I ever obfuscate is who exactly I am and where I live because of an unfortunate incident on here. I am wary of  giving away too much very personal info on the WWW.

[Boiling a frog]

Idun said

NOW, UK pensioners who move to France, do not pay any NI contributions on their pensions in order to get an S1(E121), the UK government simply pay up..

Not quite correct if one has not paid the required number of NI stamps one will not be entitled to an OAP pension and therefore an S1.

But why compare apples with pears, the two systems are not the same, you moved to France you cannot expect the same systems in place as in the UK ,you have already said that.Likewise back in the UK you cannot expect the same system as France ,so why huge long posts about the French system , it is irrelevant, the UK pays WFA which the EU have now decided we ,in France are entitled too, end of .

Disingenious ,perhaps I used the wrong word, perhaps obfuscation is the word I was looking for, my humble apologies.

However it is all getting boring, this thread was about a change in the rules, not whether these rules are right or wrong, whether the French system is better than the UK system etcetcetc. . I have said my piece, given the information,

I am not forcing anyone to apply for the payment and I certainly did not expect insults from someone who deliberately took the wrong meaning from something which to most people was an obvious idiom and then an extension of that idiom.

[Russethouse]

LOL BAF, when has every decision made by the European Court been right ?

A few years ago I was right behind the campaign to maintain the health regime that many of you moved over expecting to take advantage of. Likewise those of you that moved before you were 60 knew the situation regarding WFA ...

It was a benefit never meant for non residents and it's a grave misjudgement to give it IMHO.......looking further than France there are those in parts of Spain which are rarely cold, ( thats why some people winter there )that will receive it ....quite mad.

[Boiling a frog]

I believe it is a correct decision ,just as the decision re exportability of attendance allowance?

Some parts of the UK are a lot warmer than other parts