dr orloff Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Why? I didn't mention changing when it is paid. It already is a tax but a flat rate tax. Merging social charges and income tax would make a far more progressive system. It would benefit those on lower incomes. Social charges and income tax could still be paid in the same way but the method of calculation would take into account total earnings. Hollande was in favour but has gone quiet on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Well it certainly hurt us when it came in, but I really would rather it stayed as it is. And I don't think that it would make the system more progressive at all. We will have to disagree about this. Also, could the government afford to lose all that income for a year?????? I cannot see how they could afford to do that.I realise that there has been talk of starting PAYE, but it is not how taxes are done in France and I don' think it would go down well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr orloff Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I'm happy to disagree. Actually both the socialists and UMP had some common ground on this as set out [url=http://www.connexionfrance.com/social-charges-income-tax-merger-what-it-means-expats-10895-news-article.html]in this article. [/url] I don't understand how you don't agree that moving from a flat rate to a banding system isn't progressive (since that is its very definition) but I do agree that the cost of implementing it might be why Mr Hollande has kept quiet about it since assuming office. Either that or he isn't quite as bold with his statements about taking from the rich and giving to the poor these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 As I pointed out, the government would have to wait a year for the money and it must be a huge amount that would reek havoc with the figures at the moment. I doubt that Angela would let them get away with it, to be honest. Also, as I pointed out was that people would initially have money in their pockets, which if on a low income would hastily get swallowed up and the following year I reckon that the adjustments would mean that many who didn't pay tax or little, would end up with an extra bill. Also it would probably sneakily affect their quotient, which affects much in french life.Isn't the trouble that so much is being cut back that even people on half decent incomes are really feeling the squeeze too? So if the 'real' poor, are not being hit, then who, so the poor will be hit in some way or another and those with better incomes even harder........ as the rich are amazingly good at not paying their way, or becoming belgian or russian. Me, I actually went spare when discussing this with friends when it came in as it hit the poor and I thought it a scandal. We were hurt, but frankly we were not 'poor' either. I find many french people have a fatalistic attitude to much in life and there was much shrugging and qu'est-ce tu veut'ing!And I know that much has been said about these amounts merging and also starting PAYE. So far just mumblings, but nothing more........... I'd actually leave things as they are, I really would, it is bad enough as it is, but it is the devil that is known and I don't trust governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr orloff Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I don't think you understand what the proposition means. It would make no difference whatsoever to how long the government would have to wait for the money. It doesn't mean the two taxes are merged into one, it simply means the methods of calculation are unified into one scheme that is based on a banding system, ie: a progressive system, rather than one being a flat rate irrespective of earnings. It doesn't mean that PAYE is introduced. It doesn't mean that any changes are necessary to how income tax or social charges are collected or when. Angela has no say in French fiscal policy, that is an internal matter. A mistrust of government? that is one area on which I do agree with you, especially the current one.But this is hypothetical and way off the original point of the thread, which is to assist those who have been unfairly subjected to social charges on UK rentals so best to leave these what is fair and what isn't discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Hi, just to return to the original subject of the thread, an update on my situation. Our French accountant contacted the Impots to point out the error in levying social charges on our UK property income. Even though they had already given the income tax credit on this income, the Impots' response was to promise to remove the social charges, but only when they had seen proof that this income had been already taxed in the UK! This is of course not possible to provide, since the tax years in France and the UK are different, the declaration dates are different and the final reckoning up for 2012-13 tax in the UK won't take place til January. The accountant thought they were playing funny b**gers and were completely unjustified in asking for this as a condition to revising their social charges assessment, but we have emailed them the evidence from our previous 2 UK tax years to show that we do earn such sums from UK property and have been taxed on it in the past. Lets see what happens next.......As an aside, the Impots also failed to include in our assessment over 20k euros of pension income, properly declared on our French tax forms and wholly taxable in France. Seems to suggest they haven't a clue what they're doing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 DaftDoctor thats awful. As I said there is such huge variance from office to office. If you get some nasty person.........well! I would send them the relevent sections of the DTT . I think if you search online they are easy to find. You can also get your accountant to lodge an appeal for you. Perhaps someone can explain the process on the forum. What they are asking of you makes no sense. I am no longer living in France but am still waiting for my Avis. My accountant advised that in some areas it could be the end of Sept by the time they are sent out even though they advise that it has to be paid by mid Sept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr orloff Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I have always contested social charges on UK rents with the latest HMRC assessment. They have always accepted it, for example, a 2010/11 statement for the French 2012 declaration (2011 income), so I don't think you will have a problem with your reclaim. You could always send them the DGFIP email for good measure as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aly Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 dr orloff - just to be clear do you request a summary from HMRC detailing your payments or are you referring to the self assessment paperwork that you or your accountant complete for your UK return Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr orloff Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I receive an annual statement from HMRC with a tax calculation and amount owed for the year, rather like a simple version of the French Avis D'impot. It is also available to print off if you sign up for an online account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I use taxcalc to prepare and submit my UK tax returns, so can generate copy pages and tax summaries very easily. I don't however get anything directly from HMRC, but can generate statements from my HMRC online account. The problem in this particular case is that the UK income in question arose from our move to France in May 2012 until the end of 2012, so it fell wholly within the 2012-13 UK tax year. Although as with most people taxed under self assessment we've made payments on account for our 2012-13 UK tax liability, we haven't yet submitted our returns and the final reckoning up hasn't taken place. Hence the sending of the past 2 years (10-11 & 11-12) UK property pages and tax summaries. Hopefully going to war will not prove necessary. The stupid thing is that by giving us the French income tax credit against that income on the Avis, they have already accepted that it is liable for UK tax, so they're contradicting themselves by asking for more evidence vis a vis waiving the social charges on that income. Hopefully this week will see a sensible resolution......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboy Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Good afternoon all,Couple of questions arising for me reference this thread,1) If you are over the state pension age and in receipt of S1 cover, is any of your income liable to CSG/CRDS?( On another thread about tax this is implied)2) We have a small income from a UK rental property, plus my OAP and Army pensions, which have had tax deducted in the UK. Would we be liable to pay CSG/CRDS on any of these?Many thanks in advance,Johnnyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brown Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 If you insert "Titulaire de formulaire S1, pas a la charge d'assurance maladie" at the bottom of page 2 of Tax Form 2042 it reinforces the fact that you shouldn't be liable for these charges John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboy Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Many thanks for that JB, just off to Bellac office to do battle now. Will update any result asap!Johnnyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboy Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Well a result for us by going to the office this morning. Spoke with a guy and he found that they had not ticked a box on our return, which resulted in them demanding €937 CSG!On ticking the box, the demand was reduced to €96 whilst we waited. Result!!He also explained that its not purely the form S1 which is required, but that from now on it will be the "Attestation de Droits a l'assurance maladie" from the local CPAM.With that attached to the Tax Return, all should be in order in future.He also confirmed that the OAP will be considered for tax in France, not the UK.However, as we are still below the tax threshold in France, there is no income tax to pay.All in all a worthwhile trip to Bellac this sunny morning.Also, for info, for anyone who uses the tax office in Bellac, there is a local CPAM office just around the corner from the tax office where you can get a copy of your Attestation de droits, but it is not open all the time apparently. (Ours usually comes from Limoges, but have not received it yet)Hope this is useful to other peeps who use that office.Johnnyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr orloff Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 So what does the €96 social charges relate to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboy Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 My wife has a small investment in an e-bond and the CSG is levied against the interest on that. No way out of that one as investments are treated slightly differently than income tax from other sources. So the rate of 15.5% is applied on that only.Will not be much of a problem in the next tax year as she did not get it transferred to another investment in time, so the interest being given will be about the same as the tax due this year. A summary lesson in keeping tabs on where your money is invested for the best return!Johnnyboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 I have just printed a copy of my Attestation de droits à l'assurance maladie from my account at www.ameli.fr It does not specifically state that I have cover by virtue of a form S1, but the code gestion is "70", which, having Googled, I believe indicates "covered under international convention".It certainly seems a convenient way to establish one's tax situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboy Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Ah, maybe there is a different code for someone who is covered under the S1, but not receiving their OAP yet( old system of E121)?Is there someone out there who could clarify that point if they are in that situation?I've just confirmed that my code on Amelie is 70 as well BTW.JohnnyboyJust remembered to add, that I had given a copy of our S1 in with our Tax return initially, but they had still managed to get it wrong by not ticking a box!JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nectarine Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Excellent thread, and thanks for the CPAM info. Just checked and we are code 70 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Does anyone on here have other than "70" as "Code gestion" on their CPAM attestation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Hi, I had a look back on our attestations and before we had the form E121 our code was 89. and I have seen a code 2 on something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Yes mine is 11, but then I pay social charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Norman. Do you pay social charges on your pension(s) from the first euro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 There is no 'tax free' allowance as with Impôt sur le revenu (although it is looking very likely that that 10% will be abolished)The situation is flexible according to income with 2 different % and some exonerations for very low income.http://www.capital.fr/retraite/actualites/ces-retraites-qui-payent-la-csg-et-ceux-qui-y-echappent-764006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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