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Compulsory prepayment of tax due on savings accounts


NormanH
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I had this message from Crédit Agricôle today:

It seems to imply that the bank will keep back 24% tax on interest, and this may later be adjusted after reception of your déclaration next year

It can be avoided if your RFR is less that 25000, but you have to contact your bank before the 30th November

Has anybody else had this, or does anyone know anything about it?

Chère Cliente, cher Client,

Si vous

étiez concerné, nous vous avons informé, par notre e-mail du 30 janvier

2013, des principales évolutions concernant la fiscalité de l’épargne,

parmi lesquelles l’instauration de deux acomptes fiscaux sur les

intérêts et dividendes.

LES INTERETS des Comptes sur Livret, Dépôts à terme, obligations, SICAV, Fonds

Communs de Placement, Plan Epargne Logement après 12 ans supportent,

depuis le 1er janvier 2013, un acompte obligatoire au taux de 24 %, prélevé à la source par votre banque.

Vous devrez déclarer les intérêts perçus dans votre déclaration de

revenus au titre des revenus 2014 et l’administration fiscale

remboursera un trop-perçu de fiscalité sur ces intérêts si votre tranche

marginale d’imposition est inférieure à 24  % ou, à l’inverse,

appellera un complément de fiscalité si votre tranche marginale

d’imposition est supérieure à 24 %.

 
  Vous pouvez être dispensé du versement de cet acompte si le revenu fiscal de référence de votre foyer fiscal (se reporter à votre avis d’imposition 2013(1)) est inférieur à 25.000 € pour une personne seule ou 50.000 € pour un couple. Vous devrez alors, pour ce qui concerne vos revenus de l'année 2014, faire la demande de dispense auprès de votre banque, AVANT LE 30 NOVEMBRE 2013, en produisant une déclaration sur l’honneur disponible dans votre agence(2).

LES DIVIDENDES
des actions, SICAV et Fonds Communs de Placement supportent, sur le même principe, un acompte obligatoire de 21 %.

Il sera possible sur demande (formulée dans les mêmes conditions et les

mêmes délais que pour les intérêts) d’être dispensé de cet acompte, si

le revenu fiscal de référence de votre foyer fiscal (se reporter à

l’avis d’imposition 2013(1)) est inférieur à 50.000 € pour une personne seule ou 75.000 € pour un couple.

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[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="woolybanana"]This does not apply to investments held inside an assurance vie, as far as I know, but aren't social charges levied on top?[/quote]

This is just the tax, not any social charges.

[/quote]

Hi,

    I think this may apply this year only ( due to the continual back-tracking and policy changing of this "government") - but it is a good way for the government to get a huge interest -free loan for a year!

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[quote user="Judith"]Has anybody else had this, or does anyone know anything about it?

Not yet, but  no post so far today.  I'll keep an eye open.

It's seems like another of FH's attempt to sneakily tax us to replenish  his empty coffers ...

[/quote]

Hi,

   Here it is from "vos droits":

"Revenus de 2013 (déclaration en 2014)

Les produits de placements à revenus variable sont soumis au barème

progressif de l'impôt sur le revenu, après application d'un abattement

de 40 % (sauf certains revenus) et de certains frais financiers.

Un prélèvement à la source obligatoire de 21 % s'applique à vos

revenus perçus à partir de 2013. Ce prélèvement constitue un acompte

d'impôt sur le revenu. Ainsi, le prélèvement acquitté en 2013 sera pris

en compte pour le calcul de votre impôt à payer en 2014 sur vos revenus

de 2013.

Toutefois, vous bénéficiez d'une dispense de prélèvement si votre revenu fiscal de référence de 2011 est inférieur à 50 000 € (75 000 €

pour un couple). Vous devez en formuler la demande à vos banques

concernées avant le 1er avril 2013 (pour les années suivantes, la

demande devra être produite avant le 31 décembre de l'année précédent

le paiement). En pratique, votre établissement financier vous adresse un

formulaire d'attestation sur l'honneur, à remplir et à lui renvoyer si

vous remplissez les conditions pour bénéficier de la dispense de

prélèvement."

From this it looks like it is permanent.  Of course it can only be taken from french- based investments, so for those affected , it might pay to look for an off-shore savings product.

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[quote user="HoneySuckleDreams"]

ok

Lots of French bu!!sh!t

You will have to understand that a lot of us can't wade through all this stuff.

Can't you paraphrase...please... just a little bit, rather than cutting and pasting whole rafts of stuff?

Simply, if you have money in a French savings account, what are the tax consequences ?

[/quote]

Hi Honey,

    I see you have been a member since 2005, I would have thought you would be able to manage some french by now.

What they are doing is taking 21% at source from interest and dividends paid in France , as an advance on the next years tax  - then if your rate turns out to be lower , they will give a refund.  If your income is below the levls quoted you can apply to be excused the pre-payment ; You have to do this before the date given .  Anyone affected should be advised (about now), by their bank.  

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[quote user="HoneySuckleDreams"]

ok

Lots of French bu!!sh!t

You will have to understand that a lot of us can't wade through all this stuff.

Can't you paraphrase...please... just a little bit, rather than cutting and pasting whole rafts of stuff?

Simply, if you have money in a French savings account, what are the tax consequences ?

[/quote]

I apologise for drawing your attention to it.

Next time I will spend hours translating what you are unable  to understand.

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With the interest rates that French savings accounts pay out; I wouldn't think that too many people on here would have to worry too much about paying any tax. As for asking for help in translating something; although many of us try very hard with the language, when like me you aren't domiciled here, technical or "legalese" is difficult enough in English, so please try and be little tolerant to those less gifted than you are. [:P]

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It says:

" 1er janvier 2013, un acompte obligatoire au taux de 24 %, prélevé à la source par votre banque.

Vous devrez déclarer les intérêts perçus dans votre déclaration de

revenus au titre des revenus 2014 et l’'administration fiscale

remboursera
un trop-perçu de fiscalité sur ces intérêts si votre tranche

marginale d’imposition est inférieure à 24  %"

The second part implies that it is for people who will be making a French tax declaration, since any over payment will be reimbursed after receipt of your tax declaration  and calculation of what you owe.

In any case the crux is that if you think you should be exempt you need to contact your bank before the 30th November or 24% of the interest will be taken as a compulsory down payment on the tax that will be levied next year.

Those exempt are those whose

 revenu fiscal de référence as shown on the  avis d’imposition 2013  is under 25.000 € for a single person or 50.000 €for  a couple.

This is not automatic. You have to claim the exemption.

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I'd've thought that banks like CA Britline might have had the foresight (who am I kidding?) to let their many non-French-resident customers know about this.

For myself, I'm not rich enough to be overly concerned, apart from a few shares which I acquired in an employee share offer. There, I would have thought that perhaps the company concerned might have taken the trouble to mention this to employee (or ex-employee) shareholders, many of whom in the UK have no day-to-day reason to keep abreast of French tax changes such as this...

But, then again, if you're not a French taxpayer in the first place, you can't have a RFR....

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Well  I am certainly exempt, so will need to contact my bank.

It is only about 20€ in my case, but after Cyprus I find it a worrying precedent that the French government feel it is ok to tell the banks to withhold money from savers at source...even if in some cases it will be due anyway.

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[quote user="NormanH"]Well  I am certainly exempt, so will need to contact my bank.
It is only about 20€ in my case, but after Cyprus I find it a worrying precedent that the French government feel it is ok to tell the banks to withhold money from savers at source...even if in some cases it will be due anyway.
[/quote]

But, Norman, I don't "get" your point here.  UK banks also withhold the tax part of any interest you may get (what interest?[:'(]) at source and, if you are exempt, you, en principe, have to claim it back from HMIR.

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[quote user="sweet 17"]

[quote user="NormanH"]Well  I am certainly exempt, so will need to contact my bank.

It is only about 20€ in my case, but after Cyprus I find it a worrying precedent that the French government feel it is ok to tell the banks to withhold money from savers at source...even if in some cases it will be due anyway.

[/quote]

But, Norman, I don't "get" your point here.  UK banks also withhold the tax part of any interest you may get (what interest?[:'(]) at source and, if you are exempt, you, en principe, have to claim it back from HMIR.

[/quote]

I don't see the relevance of what happens in the UK to savers in French banks.

The UK also practises  PAYE, but France doesn't.

Here  one pays the tax bill later once it has been assessed and a demand has been issued, or that has been the case up till now. This is something new which as Sue commented  sounds like a nice way of getting an interest-free loan for  several months in advance..

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Oh dear, I expressed myself badly.

Of course, what happens in the "UK to savers in French banks" is not of the same relevance to the topic and I didn't mean to draw parallels.  I merely wanted to point out that, in effect, the government (via the banks) have always taken out money from the poor old taxpayers.

They take out the money and then you claim it back and it's never quick action on their part when it comes to reimbursing you.

I do realise, reading from the info posted on this thread, that it's a new departure for savers in France.  However, it's not a new tax, is it?  Just a different way of collecting it.

Do you imagine that, when the government (France or UK) makes a mistake with your taxes and takes more than they should, you don't have your argue your point till kingdom come whilst they hang on to your dosh?

In that way, I don't think it's so ridiculous to make comparisons.  After all, many on the Forum do have a foot in both camps as it were and I don't think I need to apologise for making the comment that I made earlier.

Someone, for example, might be in the course of deciding in which country to save their money, and then some comparisons might not only be useful but might help them make up their mind. 

 

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Yes sorry I was a bit brusque in my way of expressing it.

You are coming at it from an English point of view which finds it usual to pay tax up front and then claim it back.

I have been here for so long that I had forgotten that ( and anyway have never had any savings in the UK to be taxed so was ignorant of how it works there)

I am coming at it from the 'French' angle which expects tax to be paid after a demand is made  on the basis of precise figures.

You hold on to it as long as possible and even try to get some interest.

In any case it is not the bank that has the right to get its grubby hands on my money, it is the tax authorities who send a bill, and the bank would only be involved if I failed to pay my due taxes.  There is no middleman.

Remember that one of the points that is always made in France against PAYE is that it involves putting another person (in that case the employer) between the individual and the tax office

From that point of view this new arrangement shocks me:

1) In demanding an advance which may nor even be due

2) Giving a bank the right to interefere in my affairs by giving some of my money to another body without my permission.

Looking at the way the Cyprus government are trying to get their hands on savers' money  I am strongly against letting banks have access to the funds they should be keeping for their clients.

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[quote user="NormanH"]

From that point of view this new arrangement shocks me:

1) In demanding an advance which may nor even be due

2) Giving a bank the right to interefere in my affairs by giving some of my money to another body without my permission.

[/quote]Strictly speaking the banks are just giving some of the interest to the government on your behalf. I think we are all agreed that it is not the role of banks to decide which laws they will obey and which they will ignore so the banks have no choice in this matter. I do understand that the change is causing some problems for people in tight financial circumstances and they do have my sympathy

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