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Stop employing people on the black


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I would like to warn people of employing workers on the black.

My husband recently quoted  for building work ( he is registered ) and was horrified to find out that these people had been quoted nearly twice as much from workers on the black !

PLEASE do not do it, it is ilegal and stupid when there are many good artisans out there, i know it's easy to employ someone who did a few odd jobs and you think you know them, but you are taking a big risk.Registered builders are registered for a reason.     

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How do you know if they are registered or not? Do they carry a certificate of some kind? How would I know if its real or a made up one? Im looking to employ a builder / plasterer in the near future for the first time in france, How will I know if hes a good plasterer? or just joe bloggs who decided to become a plasterer last week? Is there anywhere I could get an Idea of what I should pay for the work so I know that im not being ripped of price wise?

Any other things I should be thinking of?

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As in the UK, if possible it is a good idea to ask around for recommendations.  If you don't know anyone to ask, then try the local agence immobilier, as they will probably know people who have had work done on new builds or renovations.  Or you could post a request for recommendations on the forum, for your area of France.

Check for a siret number, and crosscheck this against one of the online sites here

Get two or three quotes, the difference can be staggering. 

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Using unregistered workers:

To me, it is simple. If someone is not registered - and therefore not

paying tax or cotisations and are not insured - they are committing

fraud. Are you going to trust a crook to do a good job and treat you fairly? Oh... let me think...[:P]

Try and make sure that the artisan has a siret number that registers him to do what you want him to do.

He may be registered (and even insured) for building work but

specifically stonework (say) whereas he may be quoting to do your roof

which is outside his registration and insurance.

Always get a written Devis. Don't accept verbal quotes. Go through the

devis carefully before signing. You may have given him a written

specification to quote against but if an item from that specification is not on the devis it

has not been included.

Agree a FINISH date and include it on the devis. (Start dates are irrelevant).

Before making a decision, ask to see (and keep a photocopy of) his

decennal insurance - which is the insurance giving you 10 years of

comeback on shoddy workmanship, for eg.. Allegedly. If the guy isn't

registered  he won't have decennel insurance. If he is registered, he

may still not have decennel insurance because it is expensive and some

don't - it's an unenforced requirement, I think.

If the artisan doesn't have to buy enormous quantities of special materials which can only be used on your work, be very wary of artisans asking for money before they start. Some of our macon / roof / carpentry etc companies asked for 1/3rd the price on the day they started which we thought reasonable. Some didn't ask for anything till the job was complete.

You could always ask to visit a couple of the jobs he's done in the past to assess the quality of work - though I do wonder how worthwhile this is as you wouldn't know whether you were visiting his carefully coached sister who was showing off the work of a different company.

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I understand there are rather large fines for those that get caught using people 'on the black' I believe in the region of €30,000. That would discourage me! The other reason for me would be, that if I had to sell my house after a few years, for whatever reason and had had loads of improvements done, I wouldn't be able to prove how much I had spent on improving the property and could be liaible for capital gains tax on the 'profit'. One other thing, if the 'workman' on your property, say a roofer, accidentally brought down your power lines, who would pay to have them reinstated, not him I'm sure.

Paul

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But that's just it Kathie, if they're good, and cheap, then they're sure as hell going to be busy.  If anyone told you that he had nothing on at the moment and could start tomorrow, you'd be just a little bit suspicious, non?

Also depends what kind of work you want doing, a good plasterer, mason, electrician or plumber will be in great demand, but if it's just someone to do a spot of painting and decorating (for example) the options might be a bit wider.

 

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i personaly would love to know what helmarion s hubby did in the uk,what he is regestard to do here exactly,and if he sticks to what he is regestard to do when quoting to get work,and if he declares every cent he works for

it gets a bit boring listening to whingers who are never going to make a living here, complain about other workers on the black or not who are getting on with life

to many people are concerned with what other people are up to

and remember he who casts the first stone

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[quote user="hastobe"]...wondering which departments have all these available artisans that will give you a written devis....in less than a year. 

[/quote]

Manche / Calvados. [:D]

I usually assume it will take 4 - 8 weeks to get a devis after the initial visit. And several phone calls chasing. Just to confirm we really do want the work done.[:P]

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I am not working here as I am renovating my own houses,but I must say that years ago,in Britain,I was the most annoyingly moral person when it came to paying my dues. When it came down to the crunch,and my wife was made redundant, we got a BIG FAT F£$K OFF from the british government,and it taught me a very fast lesson. Nobody gives a stuff about my financial state,and nobody is there to help a fit young(ish) family who hit hard times.From then on,if I could get away with it I would,although as I started my own Ltd company,it was all legal.[Www]

Also,apparently,France has the highest imposed tax in Europe,but the least collected.Does that tell you anything about the tax paying community here?I was also told by an 'official' that a certain amount of mattress stuffing is 'expected'.

I used to sit on that moral highground,and understand and sympathise with those who do,but lack of help when we needed it has changed my mind.Yes,France may be different,and I may find out the hard way for the 2nd time.I am getting registered in Feb,and will be starting a business that is all paid and invoiced through an official body, and I will be getting away with nothing ,so I am still muggins,despite my 'rant'.

I am not sure that calling workers on the black 'fraudulent crooks' is a safe statement. I am sure if a little digging was done, we would all be a little blemished.Have you NEVER taken any cash for ANYTHING without declaring it? Think hard! How do you all pay for your logs? Do you get an invoice,and pay by cheque?

By the way,I will give any help to my friends without anything expected  or taken in return,and once found £80 cash laying on a train station floor,and handed it into lost property,so [:P]

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[quote user="pogo"]

I am not sure that calling workers on the black 'fraudulent crooks' is a safe statement. I am sure if a little digging was done, we would all be a little blemished.Have you NEVER taken any cash for ANYTHING without declaring it? Think hard! How do you all pay for your logs? Do you get an invoice,and pay by cheque?[/quote]

Re the wood, surprisingly... yes. [blink]

Unsurprisingly, this discussion has taken place before. And

as I said then, in my opinion, it is a question of degree. If someone takes

cash occasionally for weekend work, that's up to them. And I agree: it does seem to be

tacitly embedded into French culture that some work you do for the state and

some you do for yourself. Certainly most of the registered, insured French

artisans we’ve used have indicated they’d be happy to do a few small jobs for us

liquide and one or two have. Small jobs and small payments are still illegal. I don't think the authorities in France differentiate if they're investigating someone. I don't think there's an allowable "matress-stuffing" percentage they apply. [:P]

But.

If someone is living the whole or most of their life on the

noir that’s taking the pi** and an offence whatever country you are in. And I

do know of people around my area who work intermittently in the building trade in the UK and

don’t declare anything there or here but do apply for and take French

social payments for their kids and get a reduction in their local taxes because

of allegedly low income. If someone chooses to run their life that way, I

wouldn’t trust them to do work for me. I wouldn't trust them to give me a fair price. I wouldn't trust them to do a quality job.

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These people come over here. Live in nice houses, drive big cars speak a different language. I mean in the supermarket they all jabber away in their own language, you can’t understand a word of it. Not to mention of course they get loads of money from the state, never pay tax etc. Right dodgy people they are too. To think I pay all this money in tax etc and when I want some I can’t get any.

I know I’ll leave the UK and go live in France. So I do a little bit of this and that and get paid cash. I mean who’s to know, I’m not hurting anybody am I. I mean everyone else does it don’t they. I know I'll do a bit of building, it's a couple of hours on the boat I can read most of the Readers Digest book of Home DIY beats servicing cars and anyway I can't understand the lingo so I can just work for the Brits [;-)] .

It’s great fun sitting outside the Palace in Quillan on a Wednesday behind a French newspaper earwiging the Brits that gather at lunchtime (its market day), makes you ashamed to be English sometimes. Its funny that all those that complain about the UK and what they perceive (most wrongly) as going on they come and do the same thing in France [:D] .

We used to pay the girl next door to do the cleaning in high season. As somebody said we all do a little on the black that involves little or no risk. She tripped over the hoover lead coming down the stairs and bounced the last couple of metres on her @rse. No harm done but it scared the life out of me I can tell you, never again, we do it all on Cheque Employ now (probably spelt it wrong again) costs us a bit more but hey I sleep well at night and don’t have to worry about anyone knocking on my door.

Another person who owns a B&B near by was absolutely horrified when I said we put every invoice/bill through the books (and everyone gets an invoice/bill) both cash and cheque. ‘Oh we have a tin for cash’ they said. One day, next week, next month, next year somebody is going to wonder how they can survive on such a small income and questions will be asked.

Catalpa – You are not alone I also get a facture for my logs and I pay by cheque. As a Micro BIC I don’t have to keep receipts for purchases but old habits die hard. I also buy locally so I know where they live [;-)] .

As to those that use 'Black' workers, you know what the penalties are, it's been debated so many times on the forum before. So it's down to you, your all adults at the end of the day and your concience but don't moan at me if you get caught because you won't get any sympathy I'm afraid.

There is only a couple of questions I would ask for those that do employ on the Black for building work. Would you open your door to just anyone in the UK to have your house renovated or extension built. Would you let them start without getting references and other quotes and would you pay a bill written on the back of an empty packet of fags (thats being a bit optimistic in some cases)?

 

 

So why do it here?

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We pay cash for our wood at the request of the providers - though they would accept a cheque reluctantly.  We can attach a clothes peg to our letterbox flap and leave a note inside if we want some cider/calva/pommeau/chicken/guineafowl delivered for the weekend.  This seems perfectly normal practice.

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[quote] As a Micro BIC I don’t have to keep receipts for purchases but old habits die hard.[/quote]

You are, say so, registered, so you want a bet !

I am sure you have " TVA non applicable, article 293 bis du code général des impôts " on all your factures and always the name of the client or if unknown, person non identifié, which of course are carbon copied and numbered in sequence with no gaps allowed....being legal really does mean knowing an awful lot, especially as very little is actually known to few but the Impôts fonctionnaires who as ever will say you should know (yes of course but when did we get given all the info, especially those doing it for pin money, G de Fr offer much but often confuse issues) and the French  around here pooh pooh an awful lot but since last year, 3 people have had controles.

Oh and until recently (and even under the new CESU, which only allows around 8 hours a week for something like under 30% of the year, in days) employing someone on chèque emploi for registered Ch D'Hôtes was illegal, your own part of the house OK but, rooms for biz, a no no and claiming it against tax was fraught with danger !

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[quote user="Cassis"]We pay cash for our wood at the request of the providers

[/quote]

Ours (surprisingly) is happy with either. I think our supplier ([;-)]) buys some trees at auction and then sells them on as firewood though so he probably has to show some legit sales.

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[quote user="Miki"]

I am sure you have " TVA non applicable, article 293 bis du code général des impôts " on all your factures and always the name of the client or if unknown, person non identifié, which of course are carbon copied and numbered in sequence with no gaps allowed.

[/quote]

Hi Miki

I've just noticed what you said here and it raises an issue for me.

I keep all our customer records electronically using an Excel spreadsheet and generate invoices using Word mailmerge. I only print off a hard copy invoice when people want them - very few actually want one, only those who need one for expense claims, so most invoices remain filed on the computer rather than existing in hard copy. 

If called upon, I could print off an invoice for everyone who has stayed with us at the touch of a button (including the note regarding TVA non applicable, which I noted from an earlier posting and is now included on each invoice), or the Impots chaps could simply check the records on screen. 

[IMG]http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i26/cassiscassis/complete/Exampleinvoice.jpg[/IMG]

My question is, do you reckon this electronic storage system would serve in lieu of carbon copies?  It may sound a daft question but many requirements seem daft as well.

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Phil,

Personally I would say that followed the guideline. They may say it is not continually numbered, so you may have hidden something ?

We have a stamp with the tva message (cheaply bought at places like Office Depot) and sometimes I have to say, through just not having the time and forgetting to do a few weeks stamping at a time, we have given out a facture without it being stamped, not a big deal but there again, one day someone may pick it up !

We also have a facture ready to be instantly printed for those who do for one reason or another, wish to have a full facture. I think some of the British B&B's do take it more as a hotel type affair rather than an extremely simple (so called) job of giving a basic bill but written out as per requirement. I wouldn't do any more than is required to be honest and leave the print out purely for those that require it but the choice is yours. I would only worry about the fact that the regulations ask for bills to be numbered and to be continous without that run being broken with pages missing.

It is now getting pretty mixed up, with what is allowed and what isn't. Those I have spoken to, who have had a contrôle, have told me what they needed to produce and it often goes way over what one is led to believe and that has been for registered B&B's and those not, people. It does seem to me, that Impôt will see anyone doing gîtes or B&B will be treated as someone with a shop or trade and professional and not as some people have been led to believe, just keeping simple books and not bothering with numbered reciepts with tva notice, no daily reservation book, showing all bookings entered (many local ladies here, have it written in a small diary and how they know who is where and how many etc, I have no idea !) and on and on..................I think as more and more locals and ex pats of all nationalities take to campings of all standings, B&B's and accomodation hire, so more and more will be likely to get a contrôle.

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Cheers, Miki.  I only started them in March last year but from then on, they are continuously(?) numbered, e.g. for 2006 they go 2006#001, 2006#002, etc. (you may be able to just make it out in the top right corner of the screenshot, 2006# 004) so hopefully we should now be okay on that basis. 

I've got that tariff card next to the front door now, by the way. [;-)]

As far as I'm aware, we've never had a checkover by Gites de France, never mind the Impôts Enforcers.  Do either GdF or the Impots or Douanes or anyone else have a regular period for this kind of thing, as far as you know?  Or is it too variable to say?

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Far too variable and no pattern emerges to my knowledge. It can be a large expenditure, a large new amount of cash going in the bank, a random check.etc etc.

In some cases, you will get a call from the police first asking you to go doiwn to the police station. This is a general check first to see of your legality.

Gîtes de France are, in this area, now offering a day about fiscality as well as offering info on how to run ones books. The way general meetings are going at the senate, the hotels and the campings are still really pushing for tighter controls and if a recession is imminent, as some economists have hinted, then no doubt they will be even more forceful in their baying.

G de Fr, as it stands for now,  will not see it as their concern to be honest and it is left to members to know the regulations, although they do of course offer as much info as they can and much is now sent by email to us, as well as the regular mag offering news about our biz.

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Well, I wont lose any sleep over it.  Unless a mysterious benefactor drops a large sum into our account I think I can account for every penny!

I think GdF service must vary widely from region to region - our folks are sweet enough when you meet them, but all I ever hear from them is a yearly subs reminder and a request to check our details for the next year.

What magazine? [blink]

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The area we live in, is one of the largest of all the G de Fr regions, as far as the numbers of rooms and houses. It is a bit unwieldy at times, so many meetings are on offer, some actually only on a first come basis. The annual March bourse, where a number of tourists attractions bring there bumph gets larger every year. We come back with bags full of pamphlets and posters etc.

The mag is one that arrives bi monthly and keeps us all in touch with things G de Fr. I am surprised you do not receive  it, as it contains interesting stories for all over France, inc sales and swaps etc of properties.

Remember how much I told you we pay annually, well perhaps it is simply all relative (Worse luck !!)

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[quote user="Miki"]

Remember how much I told you we pay annually, well perhaps it is simply all relative (Worse luck !!)

[/quote]

Fair point!  Odd we don't get a GdF mag, though, assuming it is national rather than regional.  Anyway, better stop as we're getting off topic now.  Mea culpa.

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[quote user="Miki"][quote] As a Micro BIC I don’t have to keep receipts for purchases but old habits die hard.[/quote]

You are, say so, registered, so you want a bet !

I am sure you have " TVA non applicable, article 293 bis du code général des impôts " on all your factures and always the name of the client or if unknown, person non identifié, which of course are carbon copied and numbered in sequence with no gaps allowed....being legal really does mean knowing an awful lot, especially as very little is actually known to few but the Impôts fonctionnaires who as ever will say you should know (yes of course but when did we get given all the info, especially those doing it for pin money, G de Fr offer much but often confuse issues) and the French  around here pooh pooh an awful lot but since last year, 3 people have had controles.

Oh and until recently (and even under the new CESU, which only allows around 8 hours a week for something like under 30% of the year, in days) employing someone on chèque emploi for registered Ch D'Hôtes was illegal, your own part of the house OK but, rooms for biz, a no no and claiming it against tax was fraught with danger !


[/quote]

Funny enough I have set my business up exactly how you told me many years ago (four to be exact and I still keep a printout for reference). So of course I have kept up to date as you recommended at the time. I do exactly as you have pointed out in your first paragraph both on the computer and in a hand written book.

With regard to employing people to clean, I did ask about this a year or two ago on the forum. At the time I explained that I was just giving a friend’s daughter some pocket money during her summer break from Uni and asked how much I should pay her as a bit of ‘pocket money’ and you were one of many who replied giving a rate and you never mentioned Cheque Employ at the time obviously because it was not relevant then. You were also kind enough to send be a private reply which I still have.

The use of ‘Cheque Employ’ has changed about two years ago and it is quite legitimate to use this now to pay this type of service as per the article in LF Magazine. I am not sure what you mean by claiming ‘cheque employ’ against tax when I run as a micro BIC but I am ready to be educated,  thought that’s what I thought the 68% tax relief was all about.

I keep all my purchase invoices not for tax reasons but for insurance. Many people have said on the forum in the past that it’s difficult, if not impossible, to claim of your insurance for items you don’t have an invoice/bill for. Having recently made a claim I was told that to start the claim I must first produce an invoice/bill for the item.  Failure to do so would mean my claim would not progress. I had an invoice/bill and had no problem and my claim was paid very quickly in full.

Funny enough I have already had a ‘control’ (mid 2006) and there was absolutely no problem with my accounts and I look forward to the next one as I have nothing to hide which your post implies I may have. Apparently I was ‘shopped’ because somebody thought I might be doing something illegal, I have absolutely no idea who it was of course, but they were wrong.

 

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With

all the changes that have happened here, especially with how Impôts operate and reg changes, what I said to you 4 years ago, some

things, will of course have changed.

So

please, surely you don't want to blame someone else for you not knowing the regulations?  I know several French folks who employ people

on cheque emploi in their small businesses, they know it is illegal but simply

agree that when questioned it is cleaning on their house part. You say you asked how

much, people or just me offered you the rate. I do know (and you appear to say not

to you though) that it is illegal…well there you go, some I told and I recall

telling some on here that asked. I simply put it on for all to see this time,

not just for you to see, note, Phil picked up on parts of it and so did two

others in emails.

So

if you read my post again, you will see this :

Oh and until recently (and even under the new CESU, which only allows

around 8 hours a week for something like under 30% of the year, in days)

employing someone on chèque emploi for registered Ch D'Hôtes was illegal, your

own part of the house OK but, rooms for biz, a no no and claiming it against tax was fraught with danger !

So pretty simple to read that it is now accepted

but with limits.

And here we are again, you thinking it is all for your

benefit, I posted to show that claiming for cheque emploi, when it is being

illegal, will, with certain tax regimes, be illegal and fines will be just

part of the penalty.

As for you being ready to be educated, no

change there then !. As for articles in LF, if permitted by those above,

I would certainly find much in the course of a year to put straight in Archants French mags. There’s them that write about

regs etc here and them that are in the bluddy thick of it and, that is all too

often the big difference, remember your own cases of believing all you were told,

I’ll say no more !

In all the contrôles we have known, as far

as ascertaining that a person has sufficient funds declared to pay all ones

bills and still live the life they feel one should have, factures are demanded

for all invoices appertaining to the commerce they run. All outgoing expenses

to do with the house have also been demanded along with any hols or travel taken.

Quite a to do and rather daunting, if your contrôle never matched this kind of

interrogation, then your inspector must have been pretty sure all was in order

pretty quickly in the affair.

 No one implied anything, so get that stupid

thought out of your little head. I said wanna bet about invoices and that offer

of a bet still stands. Don't think that because of a 68% abattement, that a normal contrôle will not want to see factures to tally against ones figures. If they never

asked for your invoices, I would only say it was not a full contrôle or be

astonished had it been one.

It is all verystrange, I am reading that you still look back at my help from years ago but for a while now, when I post anything else, you  have trouble with it, well why not simply go along those lines and throw the rest away, as perhaps it must be wrong ! I try to post only on what I have experienced and from what I know, no guess work, no man in a pub. No misinterpretation (ring any bells !!) So the advice given on this thread is along that same pattern. If you say it is wrong, then so be it but it will remain my advice and maybe a guide to anyone who just believes I might just be right.

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