NormanH Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 One can hardly say that a Tax office is wrong since they are the authority in the matter.It is the old, pre-2011 method now superseded by the one we have outlined. Perhaps your office is still applying the old method which is why I emailed mine last year with the question:Madame, Monsieur,J'ai besoin de renseignements pour m'aider à remplir la déclarationdes revenus encaissés à l'étranger (2047-K)Je suis domicilié en France mais j'ai des revenus encaissés hors de laFrance et déjà imposés au Royaume Uni.Pour éviter la double imposition il y a des conventions. Soit laFrance applique un système d'exonération, soit un système d'imputationavec un crédit d'impôt égal à l'impôt français calculé sur cesrevenus.Au passé c'était toujours le système d'exonération pour les révenusprovenant du Royaume Uni mais j'ai entendu parler d'un changementrécemment.La question que je vous pose est la suivante : lequel de ces deuxsystèmes est applicable aux revenus encaissés au Royaume Uni sachantque ce pays ne figure pas dans la liste de pays où le systèmed'imputation est prévu (en haut de page trois de la notice 2047 NOT-K)?Je vous demande cela parce qu'il y a des conséquences pratiques.Il faut mettre les revenus ouvrant droit à un crédit à la section VIet les rapporter à la ligne 8TK de la déclaration 2042, mais parcontre il faut mettre les revenus éxonérés à la section VII et lesrapporter à la ligne 8 TI de la déclaration.Je voudrais bien savoir quelle démarche à suivre : Systèmed'exonération où système de crédit d'impôt ?Dans l'attente de votre réponse, je vous prie d'agréer, Madame,Monsieur, mes salutations distinguéesI got the reply En effet la convention avec le Royaume-Uni a changé. C'est le système du crédit d'impôt qui est appliqué. Donc vos revenus sont à rajouter soit en pension ou en salaires et à la ligne 8TK.Before they more or less ignored the UK income and just counted it towards the Revenu fiscale de référence.Now they calculate what the tax would have been if it had all been taxed in France, then give a credit equal to the tax you would have paid on the UK bit if it had been taxed in France. This determines where in the tax bands any income that is taxable in France (such as the OAP) falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kong Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply. I will change to using 8TK and see if they react! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hester Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Blevinsfranks say that treatment of goverment service pensions and UK rental incomes are not changed under the new treaty and that the taux effectif should still be applied to such income. They refer to article 24(3){a}{ii} of the treaty. Couldn't cut and paste but googled "avoiding double taxaton in France under the New Treaty". Hester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Then why do the French authorities say otherwise?Blevinsfranks say this but have no jurisdiction in France and one should check with your tax office and do as instructed.I cannot for the life of me understand why people don't do this for themselves but prefer to take advice from an unauthorised source.Don't believe me. Check with your tax office for yourself. I have provided a letter in workaday French for those who hesitate.If you look on page 3 of the Notice that comes with the pink 2047 you will see that the Royaume Uni is for the first time this year included in the list of "Revenus ouvrant droit à un credit d'Impôt..."so I have left that sentence out of this versionMadame, Monsieur,J'ai besoin de renseignements pour m'aider à remplir la déclarationdes revenus encaissés à l'étranger (2047-K)Je suis domicilié en France mais j'ai des revenus encaissés hors de laFrance et déjà imposés au Royaume Uni.Pour éviter la double imposition il y a des conventions. Soit laFrance applique un système d'exonération, soit un système d'imputationavec un crédit d'impôt égal à l'impôt français calculé sur cesrevenus.Au passé c'était toujours le système d'exonération pour les révenusprovenant du Royaume Uni mais j'ai entendu parler d'un changementrécemment.La question que je vous pose est la suivante : lequel de ces deuxsystèmes est applicable aux revenus encaissés au Royaume Uni?Je vous demande cela parce qu'il y a des conséquences pratiques.Il faut mettre les revenus ouvrant droit à un crédit à la section VIet les rapporter à la ligne 8TK de la déclaration 2042, mais parcontre il faut mettre les revenus éxonérés à la section VII et lesrapporter à la ligne 8 TI de la déclaration.Je voudrais bien savoir quelle démarche à suivre : Systèmed'exonération où système de crédit d'impôt ?Dans l'attente de votre réponse, je vous prie d'agréer, Madame,Monsieur, mes salutations distinguées Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 [quote user="Hester"]Blevinsfranks say that treatment of goverment service pensions and UK rental incomes are not changed under the new treaty and that the taux effectif should still be applied to such income. They refer to article 24(3){a}{ii} of the treaty. Couldn't cut and paste but googled "avoiding double taxaton in France under the New Treaty". Hester.[/quote]Hi, In the past I have found Blevins Frank's website advice marginally less reliable than that of the "Correxion". I have just looked at the article you refer to and , in addition to being quite old, (I saw it over a year ago), it is such a mish-mash of half-digested gibberish it is impossible to sensibly criticise it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The article that Blevin Franks refer to is this::' Article 24(3)(a)(ii))In the case of France, double taxation shall be avoided in the following manner: (a) notwithstanding any other provision of this Convention, income which may be taxed or shall be taxable only in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of this Convention shall be taken into account for the computation of the French tax where such income is not exempted from corporation tax according to French domestic law. In that case, the United Kingdom tax shall not be deductible from such income, but the resident of France shall, subject to the conditions and limits provided for in sub-paragraphs i), (ii) and paragraph 4, be entitled to a tax credit against French tax. Such tax credit shall be equal: (i) in the case of income other than that mentioned in sub-paragraph (ii), to the amount of French tax attributable to such income provided that the resident of France is subject to United Kingdom tax in respect of such income; (ii) in the case of income referred to in Article 7 and paragraph 3 of Article 14 when that income is subject to French corporation tax, and in the case of income referred to in Article 11, paragraphs 1, 2 and 6 of Article 14, paragraph 3 ofArticle 15, Article 16, paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 17 and paragraph 3 of Article 23, to the amount of tax paid in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of those Articles; however, such credit shall not exceed the amount of French tax attributable to such incomeI can't find any mention of UK Local Government pensions there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Doctor Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 HiJust want confirmation really, but am I right in assuming that UK property income (being wholly taxable in the UK) should be presented on forms 2047 & 2042 in exactly the same way as Government Pensions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 [quote user="Daft Doctor"]HiJust want confirmation really, but am I right in assuming that UK property income (being wholly taxable in the UK) should be presented on forms 2047 & 2042 in exactly the same way as Government Pensions?[/quote]Hi, In its simplest form -yes. 2047 VI deduct expenses at"charges" and transfer net to 2042 8TK. To reduce the revenu fiscal de reference (and possibly , slightly, the tax rate) for u/f rents <15 000€ pa you can first declare at 4BE on 2042 , and for f rents you can declare under Micro-BIC on 2042C 5NP . As the effect may be quite small , you may decide to go the simple route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kong Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Box 8TK again.At last I have sight of avis for this year and my tax has jumped several hundred euros. I declared Gov pension on 1BS and on 8TK. However they have not given me any relief for the 8TK. Will have to make an appeal and see what happens! [8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I did it the same way as you and my Avis shows this.The section in bold is where you can expect to find the crédits d'impotAVIS D’IMPÔT 2013Impôt sur les revenus de l'année 2012Détail des revenusPensions, retraites, rentes....................................................Abattement spécial de 10%..................................................Salaires, pensions, rentes nets.............................................TotalXXXXXXRevenus perçus par le foyer fiscalRevenus de capitaux mobiliers déclarés..............................Revenus de capitaux mobiliers imposables 7.......................11Revenu brut global.............................................................CSG déductible.....................................................................Abattement personnes âgées ou invalides...........................- 1 156Revenu imposable..............................................................Revenus étrangers imposables en France 13........................xxxxxyyyyyImpôt sur les revenus soumis au barème 14*Impôt sur le revenu net avant corrections.......................zzzzzzzzImpôt total avant crédits d'impôt...........................................zzzzCREDITS D'IMPOT, IMPUTATIONSMontantcalculéabcCrédit d'impôt sur rev. étrangers 13.......................................______________________Montantretenuabc- abc_________IMPOT NETTotal de votre imposition nette à recouvrer..................... xyz Taux d'imposition 24.............................................................. Y.XX% ______________________ INFORMATIONS COMPLEMENTAIRES Revenu fiscal de référence 25. AZERTY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kong Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Thank you for showing me your avis. Mine doesn't look like yours at all. The section showing a credit is not there. I suspect that the format of the avis is not universal from one tax office to the next. I will approach them by using the online 'reclamation' and a letter and if necessary visit them. Luckily our office is very helpful.Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now