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Form 2042SK - Box 8TK


minnie
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One can hardly say that a Tax office is wrong since they are the authority in the matter.

It is the old, pre-2011 method now superseded by the one we have outlined. Perhaps your office is still applying the old method which is why I emailed mine last year with the question:

Madame, Monsieur,
J'ai besoin de renseignements pour m'aider à remplir la déclaration
des revenus encaissés à l'étranger (2047-K)
Je suis domicilié en France mais j'ai des revenus encaissés hors de la
France et déjà imposés au Royaume Uni.
Pour éviter la double imposition il y a des conventions. Soit la
France applique un système d'exonération, soit un système d'imputation
avec un crédit d'impôt égal à l'impôt français calculé sur ces
revenus.
Au passé c'était toujours le système d'exonération pour les révenus
provenant du Royaume Uni mais j'ai entendu parler d'un changement
récemment.

La question que je vous pose est la suivante : lequel de ces deux
systèmes est applicable aux revenus encaissés au Royaume Uni sachant
que ce pays ne figure pas dans la liste de pays où le système
d'imputation est prévu (en haut de page trois de la notice 2047 NOT-K)
?
Je vous demande cela parce qu'il y a des conséquences pratiques.
Il faut mettre les revenus ouvrant droit à un crédit à la section VI
et les rapporter à la ligne 8TK de la déclaration 2042, mais par
contre il faut mettre les revenus éxonérés à la section VII et les
rapporter à la ligne 8 TI de la déclaration.


Je voudrais bien savoir quelle démarche à suivre : Système
d'exonération où système de crédit d'impôt ?

Dans l'attente de votre réponse, je vous prie d'agréer, Madame,
Monsieur, mes salutations distinguées

I got the reply

En effet la convention avec le Royaume-Uni a changé. C'est le système du crédit d'impôt qui est appliqué. Donc vos revenus sont à rajouter soit en pension ou en salaires et à la ligne 8TK.

Before they more or less ignored the UK income and just counted it towards the Revenu fiscale de référence.

Now they calculate what the tax would have been if it had all been taxed in France, then give a credit equal to the tax you would have paid on the UK bit if it had been taxed in France. This determines where in the tax bands any income that is taxable in France (such as the OAP) falls.

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Blevinsfranks  say that treatment of goverment service pensions and UK rental incomes are not changed under the new treaty and  that the taux effectif should still be applied to such income.   They refer to article 24(3){a}{ii} of the treaty. Couldn't cut and paste but googled "avoiding double taxaton in France under the New Treaty". Hester.



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Then why do the French authorities say otherwise?

Blevinsfranks  say this but have no jurisdiction in France and one should check with your tax office and do as instructed.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people don't do this for themselves but prefer to take advice from an unauthorised source.

Don't believe me. Check with your tax office for yourself. I have provided a letter in workaday French for those who hesitate.

If you look on page 3 of the Notice that comes with the pink 2047 you will see that the Royaume Uni is for the first time this year included in the list of "Revenus ouvrant droit à un credit d'Impôt..."

so I have left that sentence out of this version

Madame, Monsieur,

J'ai besoin de renseignements pour m'aider à remplir la déclaration

des revenus encaissés à l'étranger (2047-K)

Je suis domicilié en France mais j'ai des revenus encaissés hors de la

France et déjà imposés au Royaume Uni.

Pour éviter la double imposition il y a des conventions. Soit la

France applique un système d'exonération, soit un système d'imputation

avec un crédit d'impôt égal à l'impôt français calculé sur ces

revenus.

Au passé c'était toujours le système d'exonération pour les révenus

provenant du Royaume Uni mais j'ai entendu parler d'un changement

récemment.

La question que je vous pose est la suivante : lequel de ces deux

systèmes est applicable aux revenus encaissés au Royaume Uni?

Je vous demande cela parce qu'il y a des conséquences pratiques.

Il faut mettre les revenus ouvrant droit à un crédit à la section VI

et les rapporter à la ligne 8TK de la déclaration 2042, mais par

contre il faut mettre les revenus éxonérés à la section VII et les

rapporter à la ligne 8 TI de la déclaration.

Je voudrais bien savoir quelle démarche à suivre : Système

d'exonération où système de crédit d'impôt ?

Dans l'attente de votre réponse, je vous prie d'agréer, Madame,

Monsieur, mes salutations distinguées

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[quote user="Hester"]

Blevinsfranks  say that treatment of goverment service pensions and UK rental incomes are not changed under the new treaty and  that the taux effectif should still be applied to such income.   They refer to article 24(3){a}{ii} of the treaty. Couldn't cut and paste but googled "avoiding double taxaton in France under the New Treaty". Hester.

[/quote]

Hi,

   In the past I have found Blevins Frank's website advice marginally less reliable than that of the "Correxion".   I have just looked at the article you refer to and , in addition to being quite old, (I saw it over a year ago), it is such a mish-mash of half-digested gibberish it is impossible to sensibly criticise it .

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The article that Blevin Franks refer to is this::' Article 24(3)(a)(ii))

In the case of France, double taxation shall be avoided in the following
manner:
(a) notwithstanding any other provision of this Convention, income
which may be taxed or
shall be taxable only in the United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of
this Convention shall be taken into account for the computation
of the French tax where such
income is not exempted
from corporation tax according to French
domestic law. In that case, the United Kingdom tax shall not be deductible from such income, but the resident of France shall, subject to the conditions and limits provided  for in sub-paragraphs i), (ii) and paragraph 4,

be entitled to a tax credit against French
tax. Such tax credit shall be equal:
(i) in the case of income other than that mentioned in sub-
paragraph (ii), to the amount of French tax attributable to such
income provided that the resident of France is subject to
United Kingdom tax in respect of such income;
(ii) in the case of income referred to in Article 7 and paragraph 3
of Article 14 when that income is subject to French
corporation tax, and in the case of income referred to in
Article 11, paragraphs 1, 2 and
6 of Article 14,
paragraph 3 of

Article 15, Article 16, paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 17 and
paragraph 3 of Article 23, to
the amount of tax paid in the
United Kingdom in accordance with the provisions of those
Articles; however, such credit shall not exceed the amount of
French tax attributable
to such income

I can't find any mention of  UK Local Government pensions there.

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[quote user="Daft Doctor"]Hi

Just want confirmation really, but am I right in assuming that UK property income (being wholly taxable in the UK) should be presented on forms 2047 & 2042 in exactly the same way as Government Pensions?[/quote]

Hi,

      In its simplest form -yes.  2047 VI deduct expenses at"charges" and transfer net to 2042 8TK.   To reduce the revenu fiscal de reference (and possibly  , slightly, the tax rate) for u/f rents <15 000€ pa you can first declare at 4BE on 2042 , and for f rents you can declare under Micro-BIC on 2042C 5NP .

      As the effect may be quite small , you may decide to go the simple route.

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  • 4 months later...

Box 8TK again.

At last I have sight of avis for this year and my tax has jumped several hundred euros. I declared Gov pension on 1BS and on 8TK. However they have not given me any relief for the 8TK. Will have to make an appeal and see what happens! [8-)]

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I did it the same way as you and my Avis shows this.

The section in bold is where you can expect to find the crédits d'impot

AVIS D’IMPÔT 2013

Impôt sur les revenus de l'année 2012

Détail des revenus

Pensions, retraites, rentes....................................................

Abattement spécial de 10%..................................................

Salaires, pensions, rentes nets.............................................

Total

XXXXXX

Revenus perçus par le foyer fiscal

Revenus de capitaux mobiliers déclarés..............................

Revenus de capitaux mobiliers imposables 7.......................

1

1

Revenu brut global.............................................................

CSG déductible.....................................................................

Abattement personnes âgées ou invalides...........................

- 1 156

Revenu imposable..............................................................

Revenus étrangers imposables en France 13........................

xxxxx

yyyyy

Impôt sur les revenus soumis au barème 14

*

Impôt sur le revenu net avant corrections.......................

zzzz

zzzz

Impôt total avant crédits d'impôt...........................................

zzzz

CREDITS D'IMPOT, IMPUTATIONS

Montant

calculé

abc

Crédit d'impôt sur rev. étrangers 13.......................................

______________________

Montant

retenu

abc

- abc

_________

IMPOT NET

Total de votre imposition nette à recouvrer..................... xyz

 Taux d'imposition 24.............................................................. Y.XX%

 ______________________

INFORMATIONS COMPLEMENTAIRES

Revenu fiscal de référence 25. AZERTY

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Thank you for showing me your avis. Mine doesn't look like yours at all. The section showing a credit is not there. I suspect that the format of the avis is not universal from one tax office to the next. I will approach them by using the online 'reclamation' and a letter and if necessary visit them. Luckily our office is very helpful.

Thanks again.

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