Revenu de Solidarité Active (rsa payments)

[steve]

hi, i have been reading up on the rsa payments and i believe it is available to any one as long as france is your main/principle residence . i am not working or claiming any benefits as i have been living from savings but i have bought and renovated a house to rent unfurnished for min 3 years. i know i do a personal tax return each year and declare the rent then. what i would like to know is would i qualify for the rsa payments ? i will be getting €300 per month rent and the sum given for rsi for single person is €509.30 am i right in thinking that i could receive €209.30 top up per month? any help welcome ta

[idun]

I have no idea whether you will or not. I looked on your post with dismay, I was so glad when the RSA came in for those in France with no safety net.  I would hope that you would only be eligible for this once you have been in France for five years, as with health care.

As far as I am aware, it is for people who are actively seeking work who have no alternative revenue, or are handicapped in some way. And for ressorissants from the EU, who have followed the rules to live in France.


IF it is not like that, then the french have messed up.

From my point of view you are wealthy compared to a lot of french people I know, smicards who will never ever be able to afford to buy anywhere to live, never mind rent something out.

Try it and see.

HERE

[steve]

thanks for your input and opinion ! i wont bore you with my circumstances but i am only seeing what is available to eu residents in the country they live. whilst i am looking for work i will only be getting €300 per month and have no savings or any other income far less than the "smicards " you refer to. i dont intend to do any thing illegal but we are all welcome to find out what you are or are not entitled to !!!!

[Hereford]

I'm with Idun there. I think it very unlikely indeed that you would qualify.  I get the feeling that you are not actually resident in France yet, at least not yet filling in a tax return. What about your health care? You are clearly under UK pension age or would have a pension.  The French will, I am certain, expect you to get a job and pay into the system before you get anything else.

[Chancer]

page formatting screwed up so cant read all the texts.

I think that once you have filed your tax return you will qualify for it as well as the CMU de base, I'm not even sure if you have to apply for it, I think it will be automatic.

I lived on not a lot more than €300 per month for several years after 2007 and I can tell you that Smicards and RMI'stes are a lot better off, granted they wont have a tenant paying for their 2nd property but on a day to day basis the RMI is a lot of money compared to €300.

Your current healthcare provision is of no concern to this subject.

[NormanH]

To get the RSA as a European you have to have a droit de séjour

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F24637.xhtml#N100AE

 to have a droit de séjour in France for more than 3 months you have to have an income, either by working or some other means

After 5 years in that situation you become eligible for various benefits

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2651.xhtml

[nomoss]

[quote user="Hereford"] .............. I get the feeling that you are not actually resident in France yet, at least not yet filling in a tax return.[/quote]

[quote user="steve"] ................ i know i do a personal tax return each year and declare the rent then.[/quote]

[suein56]

[quote user="nomoss"]

[quote user="Hereford"] .............. I

get the feeling that you are not actually resident in France yet, at

least not yet filling in a tax return.[/quote]

[quote user="steve"] ................ i know i do a personal tax return each year and declare the rent then.[/quote]

[/quote]

From Steve's original post the phrase could almost be (re)written as :

I know I (will need to) do a personal tax return each year and declare the rent then.

I get the impression that Steve is only just finishing the renovation and has not yet rented out the property.

Sue

[idun]

That was the impression that I got too Sue, so if no tax declarations have been made, how can they prove french residence?

[suein56]

IMO they can't at the moment as they appear to have been living under the radar.

Steve says : i am not working or claiming any benefits as i have been living from

savings but i have bought and renovated a house to rent unfurnished for

min 3 years.

Which says to me that they might not have realised that they are supposed to have been filling in a tax form from the year following the year they started living here.

They cannot prove residency until they have at least 1 years tax form filling under their belt.

Sue

[EuroTrash]

I don't know how far you'd get with this.

One of the first things the application form asks for

is your sécu number. If you've never worked or

contributed here I suspect you don't have one.

I don't know if your application would get past the

lack of sécu number but certainly it would

trigger them to look closely into whether you

are legally resident in France.

Do you have full private health insurance etc, which

is a condition of legal residence?

[nomoss]

[quote user="suein56"][quote user="nomoss"]

[quote user="Hereford"] .............. I

get the feeling that you are not actually resident in France yet, at

least not yet filling in a tax return.[/quote]

[quote user="steve"] ................ i know i do a personal tax return each year and declare the rent then.[/quote]

[/quote]

From Steve's original post the phrase could almost be (re)written as :

I know I (will need to) do a personal tax return each year and declare the rent then.

I get the impression that Steve is only just finishing the renovation and has not yet rented out the property.

Sue

[/quote]

Thanks for pointing that out, Sue, and apologies to Hereford for my confusing the future with the present tense [8-)]

I guess I'm just not used to deciphering current uses of English grammar nor the concept of people who think they are entitled to live on handouts [:(]

[Chancer]

[quote user="suein56"]Which says to me that they might not have realised that they are supposed to have been filling in a tax form from the year following the year they started living here.
They cannot prove residency until they have at least 1 years tax form filling under their belt.

Sue
[/quote]

Not true, in France the law is that one is only obliged to submit a declaration des impôts if one is imposable (soumis aux impôts), now who decides and how? (not someone on a forum thats for sure [:P]) I have had this exact conversation with the head controleur and he said that its a catch 22, for someone who has never filled in a declaration in the absence of other proof (payroll, bank deposits , an investigation etc) the only way that they can decide that you must make a declaration is from the info that would be contained in said declaration.

Once a declaration is submitted any benefits like exoneration of taxe d'habitation, CMU etc are normally automatically applied

[nomoss]

[quote user="Chancer"]

[quote user="suein56"]...............They cannot prove residency until they have at least 1 years tax form filling under their belt.

Sue

[/quote]

Not true, in France the law is that one is only obliged to submit a declaration des impôts if one is imposable (soumis aux impôts),.................... [/quote]

Not quite true either, Chancer, especially in the OP's case.

Même en l’absence de revenu, une déclaration doit être

déposée si vous êtes dans l'un des cas suivants : vous disposez d'une

résidence principale dont la valeur locative annuelle excède 150 € à

Paris et dans un rayon de 30 km de Paris, 114 € dans les autres

localités ; vous avez une résidence secondaire ; vous avez un employé de

maison ; vous avez un avion de tourisme, un yacht, un bateau de

plaisance ou des chevaux de course.

Source: [url]http://impots.dispofi.fr/declaration-impots/qui-doit-declarer[/url]

The Impots website says much the same, if not in such detail, here [url]http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot?pageId=part_impot_revenu&typePage=cpr02&sfid=501&espId=1&communaute=1&impot=IR[/url]

[EuroTrash]

Chancer is correct, the law says you only have to declare if you have a taxable income. The fine for non-declaration is a percentage of the tax you should have paid, so if they do investigate then as long as it turns out you're non imposable you won't be fined..

But equally, if you're non imposable it's daft not to declare, you have nothing to lose and potentially something to gain.

EDIT, just saw the next post. Interesting - love the bit about having a yacht! So, since the OP appears to have own 2 houses, it appears they should have.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="suein56"]They cannot prove residency until they have at least 1 years tax form filling under their belt.[/quote]

That is not true.

I know of a couple who arrived latter part of a year and the following year, when they went to the tax office, they were told to go away and re-present themselves for the following year and make, in effect, a 16 month declaration.

In the meantime, they wanted to sell their current house and buy a new one. Lack of a tax declaration meant that the notaire would treat the sale as a maison secondaire with all the tax implications. The notaire was allowed to take the couple's bank statements proving regular outgoings - regular shopping, electricity and water bills, heating oil, etc, French-registered vehicle paperwork, insurance - into account as proof that the couple were resident.

[Chancer]

always a lot of judgemental and wishfull thinking posted on topics like these, when things are trotted out regularly enough people tend to believe them, that doesnt make them true.

Interesting re the second home, yachts etc [:D]

If your revenue is low enough whilst it would be nice to avoid the complications of a tax return you are turning your back on the benefits that a low income bestow.

The key word is solidarité.

[idun]

 Ah don't Chancer, I know all about solidarity, all about it. When we first moved back to England... and as you know from your pay slip, there is a deduction for chomage in France. No way on earth could we make a claim for that, but had to pay for several years anyway.  When I asked....... the fonctionnaire said, ofcourse it had to be paid it's 'solidarity'.

Let us look a what we have here and I really do not mind if this sounds Daily Mail'ish, or whatever'ish, or to whom it applies to.

It says that if one moves to France one should not be burden on the french state after the first three months. That a minimum income is required, believe me, it used to be, as to get those magic carte d'identité we had to hand in contracts and proof of income and where we lived. And these days health is supposed to be covered in fact I have been told by someone who works at the CPAM that after the first three months people should go and try and register and if they cannot take out private health insurance. And not to use their EHIC, no longer valid under EU rules, so they said, if living in France for more than three months.

I don't think it unreasonable for any state to expect anyone wanting to move there to not be burden. Why should those that work in that country pay for those who make the move without putting anything into said country.

In the OP's case, they obviously moved to France with money, and in comparison to many french people I know, a fortune, because they cannot afford property or properties. The OP says they lived off their savings whilst doing somewhere up, maybe frugally, maybe not, that was their choice. No mention of how their health care was covered during this period, maybe they crept in under the E106, now defunct for those not working. No mention of putting in tax forms either.  And now they find themselves with a possible tiny income of 300€ a month and savings gone. There will be taxe fonciere to pay on the rented property too.

I just wonder what the idea was in the first place........ what they were going to live on ? Place to live, tiny income, no savings left and the french'll help me out?????That is me saying what I am thinking 'out loud', and not necessarily what I should be saying, but there you go, I have. It took long enough for France to get a safety net for it's own people, I don't want it as a benefits haven eventually and hope it never comes to that. The UK needs to tighten up.

Re the tax form, I don't care what the tax office says, unless one moves in December or November, then I would do it these days. For early retirees, it is so important for the health care aspect that it needs doing, no matter what any fonctionnaire tells you. Easy enough to get hold of a paper declaration and hand it in, at least I would.

[EuroTrash]

I'm surprised at somebody being told to declare 18 months income on 1 tax form and agreeing without a lot of questions, unless they have a very small account to declare. So you declare a year and a half's income so do you get a year and a half's tax allowance against it, I don't see how you can, and if you don't you're paying more tax than you should and out of pocket to start with.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Chancer"]

always a lot of judgemental and wishfull thinking posted on topics like these, when things are trotted out regularly enough people tend to believe them, that doesnt make them true.

Interesting re the second home, yachts etc [:D]

If your revenue is low enough whilst it would be nice to avoid the complications of a tax return you are turning your back on the benefits that a low income bestow.

The key word is solidarité.

[/quote]

I think the key word is 'Active'

The French have always had in place the idea that any European has the freedom of movement to come and work or runa business, or spend their pension or savings.

However anyone even from the EU who wishes to stay here for more than 3 months is supposed to do one of these things to support themself

After 5 years doing that one becomes eligible for the RSA

I showd this in the links in an earlier post which seem to have been largely ignored.

[lindal1000]

From what I can see since living here is that if you ask the tax office anything you will get any number of different realities and answers to your questions..mostly conflicting. Find the answer you like the best, get it in writing and stick to it!

As far as I understood RSA is means tested..so if you own your own home it is less and other assets are taken into account when you apply. We have a French friend who returned to France after living in UK for several years and had no job or income so applied for RSA. She did have a house (that she didn't live in) and was put under pressure to rent it or sell it, with any profit having to go to pay back the money at some point. Basically they went through her assets with a fine tooth comb before awarding her any money. We also have an English neighbour who gets it but under the understanding that when he dies and the house is sold some of the money will be used to pay back what he has been given. If you qualify for the benefit Steve, I'm sure you will be able to access it, but you may find the process is more intrusive than you think.

[Catalpa]

Re the minor diversion along the route of tax office not allowing people to submit a tax return for their first year:

The couple I mentioned upthread were told to submit separate returns for 2011 (4 months) and 2012 (12 months) in 2013. Those who declare that they wouldn't tolerate such instruction from their tax office can protest and chunter all they like but that's what the tax office told them to do and that's what the couple did with no deleterious effects on the level of their eventual tax / cotisation liability.

It is also what happened to us in 2004 - though I view 2004 as ancient history now. I don't think online submissions were even available then. We moved in July 2004, the tax office would not give us the forms in 2005 for a 2004 return despite 2 visits requesting them. We received forms in 2006 for submission of separate years 2004 and 2005. We'd got an accountant by then and he confirmed it was quite normal. Despite dire warnings and much gloom from a few posters on CF (yes, TeamedUp, I do mean you [:D]) there was no difficulty doing this and there were no dreadful consequences relating to the amount of tax / contributions owed. It's simply what the French system required of us.

/diversion

[EuroTrash]

Sorry Catalpa I obviously misunderstood.

I thought you meant they were told not to bother doing a form for 2011, just to put it all on the 2012 declaration, which is why I said it seemed odd. I now realise they did submit a tax return for the first year they were here (2011) so it all comes out in the wash, they have a declaration for each year they've been here, no problem with that.

[Chancer]

There is always a wry grin on my face when i write or say "solidarité" [:D]

Solidarité means to me the answer to the question, what do I get out of it?

NOTHING! You have to pay so that others can profit from your efforts.

I think that French insurers are big on solidarité.

[idun]

Catalpa, as has been said, the officials can give all sorts of different answers and as was said to me today by one of them, not everyone does their job properly!

I would always say to do tax returns unless one arrives fin d'annee, and do them within the time limit, how can there ever be an excuse for not doing it, mince, they are not issued until the following spring time...... and that is when  people have been in France for over 3 months too. 

We didn't leave until 2008 and we had a problem with our tax, for some reason they started sending our tax returns to the wrong address in the UK.......... and that was just before we left so I just picked up a paper copy at our Mairie, or maybe the tax office..........it was never a big deal. Get the form, fill it in, and get it in on time.

I never 'got' people saying that they were told not to bother as they had arrived too late in the year. As the health debacle has show, it was actually very necessary for many to have done so.

And people do get fined, I know quite a few....... does it count that they were french?

When we all had just paper copies to do, me along with many others would get the declaration in at our Hotel d'Impots, late on the last night just before midnight as that was the cut off point. Sounds like we'd been lapse, but we hadn't, sometimes we, like thousands of others, had to have declarations from other organisations to finish our forms and they would not arrive until the last minute.

Also doesn't matter who it is, if they don't play the game and ends up with a particularly strict fonctionnaire, then they too would be fined for not doing their declaration. Just because you weren't and it was all OK according to a comptable leaves me shrugging my shoulders. The bon conseil I had from several highly qualified comptables before we left France was as much use as a chocolate fireguard.  Several things are still not sorted out IMO. I ended up going straight to the fonctionnaires and they were not much better.......however, it is they that want the money at the end of the day. The comptables would have had their money and I doubt would have been bothered about our petit problemes, which to us, were real problems.