Tax Bill - what am i doing wrong?

[Doodle]

Hello Mrs KG here and I need help please!!

This year I decided to have a go at filling in the tax forms 2047K & 2042K. I must have put something in the wrong box as a wacking great bill arrived this morning (just off 1500e) which is 4 x that my 'calcul d'impot' states and which I am sure is incorrect as in the past few years. I will visit the tax office on thursday as it is not open tomorrow but if someone could advise me as to where I've gone wrong then I would be eternally grateful.

On the 2047K I inserted each of our pensions total in the section Pensions, Retraites, Rentes - Total des pensions et avantages en nature (we are early retired & not yet receiving UK old age pensions are paying into the french health system).

Under Section B under Interets I inserted in box 8 the total amount of interest (UK savings account) then put the total in A and the same in TS.

In section VIII, I put the pensions total in box Pensions, indemnites de maladie 6.6% 8TV

On form 2042K page 3 under Pension, Retraites, Rentes I put the pensions in boxes 1AS & 1BS

I then put the interest in box 2TS

Over the last couple of years we've had to visit the tax office each year as they seem to think that we have additional income from an activity such as gites/B&B/ etc which don't have and have never had.

The only income we have coming in is our company pensions and a small amount of interest.

I really want to understand & get it right but I think that my lack of the french language plus my fear of form filling etc is contributing to me completing the wrong boxes.

So as said previously any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Mrs KG

[Lehaut]

We checked our on-line justification and found that my pension (service) did not appear at all on the form, despite using the same boxes as we have for the past several years.

Visited the tax office yesterday. The helpful lady went throught our on-line declaration (by printing the whole thing off on paper) and said two things.

a. Despite filling the form in on line (the red one 2047), they have to print it off and manually input the information, so they may have made a mistake and not entered my pension.

b. Where you put the info in on the forms changed two years ago; 1as and 6tk now on the main form.

She was very helpful, made the corrections and we asked for a copy of the corrections so we can put the figures in the right place next year.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Lehaut"] Despite filling the form in on line (the red one 2047), they have to print it off and manually input the information, so they may have made a mistake and not entered my pension. [/quote]

 

That absolutely says it all about Frances desire move with the times, join the rest of the world in this internet age and increase efficiency.

 

I bet the introduction of on line declaration allowed them to take on even more staff while rewarding the existing ones with more holidays and sick pay.

 

I did my first declaration this year,declarations actually as we filed previous years at the same time, I have got my avis d'impôt, a whopping €184 but cannot pay it on line or access my account because I dont have a teledéclaration number, the only way to get one of those is wait a year and declare on-line but to do that you need a teledéclaration number [:-))].

 

You could not make it up! How many times have I said that to myself! The most frustrating thing is no-one ever seems to see the stupidity in the things we are made to do or in this case cannot do.

[suein56]

[quote user="knee gel"]

The only income we have coming in is our company pensions and a small amount of interest. [/quote]

I am not an expert but your input on the tax forms looks about right to me.

So, it is probably not income tax but the dreaded contributions sociales which are bumping up your tax bill. The same thing happens to us as we have, up till now, not received the cover from an S1 and, consequently, have had big social contributions to pay but no actual income tax.

Hopefully Parsnips will be along shortly with his wise words.

Sue

[mint]

Sue, you are so much more "switched on" than I shall ever be.  I, too, can see nothing that Mrs KG has done incorrectly.

Of course, up to a couple of years ago, the contributions sociales would have been shown separately but, since they have merged everything together, it's not easy to work out what is income tax and what is contributions sociales.

Meanwhile, I am waiting for my avis and I am hoping that they would have refunded me what I am due.  Wonder if I ought to just, out of devilment, go to the tax office and said, well I did tell you that you needed to repay me my contributions sociales for the last 3 years so you needn't have telephoned me to tell me I was wrong?

[Doodle]

Sue you are correct in that under Total de l'impot sur le revenu net the total is -1

In the section Prevlevement Sociaux the Total de votre imposition nette a recouvrer is 1493

What I don't understand is on the simulation Calcul de l'impot 2015

the Total de l'impot sur le revenu is as above ie -1

the Montant net des prevlevement sociaux is 329

Montant net a payer is 328

Ce montant est la somme de l'impot sur le revenu net et des prelevements sociaux

This will be the third year that we've had to make the visit due to the same problem in that the simulation each year comes out at around 300 euros but the tax bill has been way over 1000 euros. The tax office looks at our case and then questions why we pay URSSAF & we explain we are pre retraite so do not have an S1 and have to pay 8% etc until such a time as we obtain the S1 which they do not understand but then if I've understood them correctly she goes on to say that the calulation is including health cover - at this point it's all beyond me but we come away with a degrevement and have only paid the amount as shown on the simulation.

The reason I've had a go at the impot this year is that the OH is at the end of his tether with tax & health bills that the authorities can't seem to get right plus the problems with a lack of phone/internet connection every couple of weeks and then the water was cut off for around 12 hours with no notice whilst they laid a pipe across a farmer's field - he has had enough & is all for packing up and returning to the UK! - maybe I may be driven to wanting to go back but at the moment I'm prepared to run with it & hence the reason I've decided to deal with it. Anyhow enough of all of that and it's off to the tax office tomorrow - wish me luck!

Mrs KG

[JohnFB]

Knee gel. Might it be the case that in the simulation it is only calculating the S.Charges on investment income and not pension. As french pensions have social charges deducted at source. i know when I do my online return it does not calculate the amount due as it cannot take account of social charges on forign income, That message appears on the screen,

JF

[Doodle]

Thanks John you may well be correct. I am wracking my brains here & coming up with all sorts of 'I wonder if', & had a thought this afternoon that does the simulator read 1AS & 1BS as UK state old pension and therefore not taking the prelevement sociaux into account?

That said we have in the previous two years had the amount payable reduced to that as recorded by the simulator with always the suggestion at least I think that's what she says that PS goes towards health and if we are in CPAM paying URSSAF then we shouldn't be paying PS as well.

Gosh what a nightmare it all is - & I'd given up nice glasses of wine to the weekends only (I doubt tomorrow evening will escape!)

[JohnFB]

I think you will find thats what is happening. You had a free gift in the past, question is do you chance your arm again. If they wake up they will go back.

It should be easy enough to check. Assuming you have no S1, then the diff between the assessment and the simulator should equal 6.6% of your pension.

No nightmare, the simulators et all are designed for the normal french not incoming forrinrs. Just like HMRC.

JF

[suein56]

knee gel said :

Thanks John you may well be correct.

I think John might have it right, but perhaps the wrong way round, as my message on the simulator used to say that no calculation could be made as we had only foreign income !

At that time we had no pension at all of any variety.

We pay between 1500€ and 2000€ in contribut soc at the moment but, hopefully, now we have our S1s that will change in the near future !

Sue

[Doodle]

John/Sue thank you so much I think you are right and that I have been focusing too much on the simulator. We have had a rather nice bottle of wine this evening (so much for weekend alcohol!) and I'm going to check out the calculations again tomorrow (ignoring simulators) and so giving the tax office visit a miss.

It's odd as although we are in for a bill much greater than anticipated (thank goodness for the good xchange rate) I feel quite sure now that the larger amount is correct and am quite relieved that I've finally made sense of it. We don't mind paying our dues but like to know the workings and then can budget for next year without being out by a 1000+ euros!

Thank you both it's one great weight lifted. If you are ever in my area I owe you a drink!

Mrs KG and him who's washing pots at the moment!

[JohnFB]

Knee Gel. Dont forget that of the social charges of 6.6% on your pension, 4.2% (x Pension) is deductible from the income of the year you pay it. So when you declare 2015 income you can deduct part of what you paid in 2015(ie the social charges calculated on 2014 income). If you follow me. The amount you can deduct is shown on your Avis.

rgds JF

[mint]

[quote user="mint"]

Meanwhile, I am waiting for my avis and I am hoping that they would have refunded me what I am due.  Wonder if I ought to just, out of devilment, go to the tax office and said, well I did tell you that you needed to repay me my contributions sociales for the last 3 years so you needn't have telephoned me to tell me I was wrong?

[/quote]

How did I just KNOW not to hold my breath?  Tax demand came today and money requested is as per usual so no surprises there!

Right, off to copy out Parsnips' letter helpfully provided on another thread and basically re-write all the letter I sent them earlier in May, repeating EVERYTHING I have said, including quoting the court findings[+o(]

Mrs KG, sorry if you feel I have hijacked your thread.  It's just that it makes for better continuation here than to write my grouse on the other thread.

And for all that my department is called Dordogneshire, they sure as hell know no more about foreigners' tax affairs here than elsewhere.  So, no more baseless jealousy that I live here, OK[:P]

[Doodle]

Thanks John, looking at the avis for last year it has been pre-printed onto this years 2042 in the 6DE box which I think is what you are referring to?

However, I now find having read the 2041GG under 'Les taux applicables' that maybe I should have entered the amount in box 8TX ie 3.8% instead of the 8TV box @ 6.6% because we have not actually paid any tax over the years, all the previous years avis show 0 for tax and the bills previously are for PS only. If I translate this document correctly, it says that we MAY benefit from a reduced tax equal to 3.8% if the amount of tax paid in previous years is inferior to 61euros. What's your take on this?

Mrs KG

[parsnips]

[quote user="knee gel"]Thanks John, looking at the avis for last year it has been pre-printed onto this years 2042 in the 6DE box which I think is what you are referring to?

However, I now find having read the 2041GG under 'Les taux applicables' that maybe I should have entered the amount in box 8TX ie 3.8% instead of the 8TV box @ 6.6% because we have not actually paid any tax over the years, all the previous years avis show 0 for tax and the bills previously are for PS only. If I translate this document correctly, it says that we MAY benefit from a reduced tax equal to 3.8% if the amount of tax paid in previous years is inferior to 61euros. What's your take on this?

Mrs KG[/quote]

Hi,

 If your "revenu fiscal de reference " for the previous year was below a certain level you are entitled to a reduced rate of social charge .  The relevant revenu limits for 2015 are as shown on this item on local taxes reductions, rates for previous years can be found online.;

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F13038.xhtml#OuSAd

[Doodle]

Thanks for the link parsnips. I think we may be just over the limit for this year but I am a bit boggled at the moment as I've been at it for several hours. Presume that this years avis showing 0 means that we are over the plafond limit.

Avis 2014 shows

Impot sur les revenus soumis au bareme 221

Decote -221

Avis 2015 shows 0

Decote 0

Mr KG is at the moment making coffee and I feel I need a barrel load!

Mrs KG

[Chancer]

[quote user="parsnips"]

Hi,
 If your "revenu fiscal de reference " for the previous year was below a certain level you are entitled to a reduced rate of social charge .  The relevant revenu limits for 2015 are as shown on this item on local taxes reductions, rates for previous years can be found online.;

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F13038.xhtml#OuSAd
[/quote]

 

How much is the reduced rate?

 

I submitted 3 déclarations for 2014, 2013 and 2012, the avis has come back for 2014 and my revenue de reference is well Uuder the plafond, when or if they calculate the previous ones they will be lower still so I should benefit from the lower rate but its chicken and egg.

 

At the moment I am paying a total of 15.5% prélèvements sociaux but on deux fois rien so I wont be rocking the boat but it would be usefull to know so I can plan for next year.

[Doodle]

Hi parsnips,

If understood correctly, the limit for 2015 for 2 parts = 16311?

The RF as shown on the avis for 2014 for 2013 revenue needs to be below this limit?

If the above is correct then we are below this limit & so I believe should get a reduction. Would you be kind enough to confirm that I have understood it correctly or if not could you explain further. Thanks.

By the way thanks very much for everyone's input - I may get to understand all of this eventually! Mrs KG

[Doodle]

John, sorry, I have just realised what you meant and yes I did deduct 683 euros as shown on last years avis from our pension total before inserting the 'reduced' total in box 8TV.

Mrs KG

[Doodle]

An update from Mrs KG.

Having convinced myself & Mr KG that we were under the bareme OH decided we were going to visit the tax office which we now have done and I am pleased to say the nice lady at the office agreed that we are under the bareme and so have received a 'degrevement'.

I shall make some notes on what to do next year!

Thanks to you all for your imput. Mrs KG