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latest on those pesky social contributions, please


mint
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HELP!

We have received an email re our CSG claim as follows:

Madame, Monsieur,

Suite à la réception des documents que vous nous avez adressés le 23/11/2015, vous n'avez répondu que partiellement à notre demande de renseignements et les documents fournis ne nous permettent pas de traiter votre réclamation.

Je vous remercie de m'adresser les documents suivants :

- une attestation de votre affiliation à la sécurité sociale, attestation qui doit impérativement mentionner la période d'affiliation. L'attestation fournie indique une affiliation depuis le 01/08/2009 et est signée du 19/08/2009, nous n'avons donc aucune preuve de votre affiliation à un régime de sécurité sociale au 31/12//2012, au 31/12/2013 et au 31/12/2014 pour Monsieur et pour Madame.

- vous ne nous avez pas précisé la nature de votre régime matrimonial.

- vous ne nous avez pas précisé non plus la nature du revenu imposé et le bénéficiaire de ce revenu imposé aux prélèvements sociaux.

J'appelle votre attention sur le fait qu'à défaut de réponse dans un délai de 30 jours à compter de la réception de cette demande, je serais obligée de rejeter votre demande.

Je vous prie de croire, Madame, Monsieur, à l'assurance de ma considération distinguée.

I have sent them our S1 and E121s - what else do they want? With regard to the marriage regime should I just send them a copy of our marriage certificate? I just don't understand what they want. With regard to the nature of the taxed income in my original claim I sent copies of our avis for the periods in question - surely this gives them the information they are asking for.

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We were never asked about our marriage regime so can't answer that. A UK marriage certificate does not show what "regime" you are under.  Have you done a French marriage contract changing your regime to "Communaute universale" (ignore poor spelling please), if not then you are "Separation de biens" I think.  That is: "what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours!

Did you send copies of the Avis from the Impôts relating to each year? That shows what the income was that they charged CSG on.

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Hi, we did sent the avis from the Impôts for each of the years so I might send these again. We originally sent our claim to the tax office at Pontivy and they have obviously forwarded it to the office at Vannes. All the avis and S1/E121 were included in our original claim but we then had a letter from Vannes asking for the S1/E121 which we sent. I can't understand what else they are asking for in relation to these as you don't get an S1/E121 for each year. I am really confused regarding what they want.

Am now thinking that maybe the Avis we sent with the original claim were not forwarded to Vannes and so I should send thes again.

With regard to the marriage regime we haven't done a French marriage contract. However when we bought the house we bought "en tontine" but I thought this just covered the house purchase.

Maybe the best way forward is to reply to their email asking exactly what it is that they want.

Any help/advice on what we should do now gratefully received.
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[quote user="Fittersmate"]HELP!

We have received an email re our CSG claim as follows:

Madame, Monsieur,

Suite à la réception des documents que vous nous avez adressés le 23/11/2015, vous n'avez répondu que partiellement à notre demande de renseignements et les documents fournis ne nous permettent pas de traiter votre réclamation.

Je vous remercie de m'adresser les documents suivants :

- une attestation de votre affiliation à la sécurité sociale, attestation qui doit impérativement mentionner la période d'affiliation. L'attestation fournie indique une affiliation depuis le 01/08/2009 et est signée du 19/08/2009, nous n'avons donc aucune preuve de votre affiliation à un régime de sécurité sociale au 31/12//2012, au 31/12/2013 et au 31/12/2014 pour Monsieur et pour Madame.

- vous ne nous avez pas précisé la nature de votre régime matrimonial.

- vous ne nous avez pas précisé non plus la nature du revenu imposé et le bénéficiaire de ce revenu imposé aux prélèvements sociaux.

J'appelle votre attention sur le fait qu'à défaut de réponse dans un délai de 30 jours à compter de la réception de cette demande, je serais obligée de rejeter votre demande.

Je vous prie de croire, Madame, Monsieur, à l'assurance de ma considération distinguée.

I have sent them our S1 and E121s - what else do they want? With regard to the marriage regime should I just send them a copy of our marriage certificate? I just don't understand what they want. With regard to the nature of the taxed income in my original claim I sent copies of our avis for the periods in question - surely this gives them the information they are asking for.[/quote]

Bonjour fittersmate

I am not in possession of knowledge like Parsnips' to tell you anything about the actual process of claim but I can comment on the contents of the email.

It seems to me that the attestation of your affiliation to the system was dated 1 aug 2009.  They say that the attestation needs to be absolutely clear as to how long the period of affiliation lasts.

So I am guessing that your E121s/S1s are dated LATER than aug 2009?  Is that correct?

You have not proved to them that you were affiliated to the social security regime in the years ending 2012, 2013 and 2014.

They also seem to want to know where the income was from that was taxed.

Now, knowing nothing more about your personal circumstances, for example, whether you worked until your official UK retirement age and thus in receipt of the S1, it's not possible to answer your question as to "what else" they are waiting to receive from you.

Could you perhaps go to your local office with a copy of the email and every other document you think they MIGHT need and at least find out what is required?

I notice the email gives you just 30 days to do this so time is really of the essence.

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Thanks Mint

We came over here in Sept 09. I had retired so had E121 and OH piggy-backed on that until he got his own S1 when he retired in September 2012. We went to the local CPAM office with his S1 and he got new carte vitale. From reading the email again it seems as if the Impots want an attestation from CPAM for each of the years we are claiming for so will go there tomorrow and see if we can get this from them.

With regard to the income it is quite clear on the avis where this has come from so will send them the avis again.

When I went to see our local tax office this year because of a mistake they had made re pension income the gentleman we normally see and who has always been quite helpful did not seem to know anything about reclaiming CSG and did not want to know!

Hopefully Parsnips will see my post and advise me.
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[quote user="Fittersmate"]Thanks Mint

We came over here in Sept 09. I had retired so had E121 and OH piggy-backed on that until he got his own S1 when he retired in September 2012. We went to the local CPAM office with his S1 and he got new carte vitale. From reading the email again it seems as if the Impots want an attestation from CPAM for each of the years we are claiming for so will go there tomorrow and see if we can get this from them.

With regard to the income it is quite clear on the avis where this has come from so will send them the avis again.

When I went to see our local tax office this year because of a mistake they had made re pension income the gentleman we normally see and who has always been quite helpful did not seem to know anything about reclaiming CSG and did not want to know!

Hopefully Parsnips will see my post and advise me.[/quote]

Hi,

 They are being deliberately obstructive  ; as said get any and every document you can think of (monthly relevés of health reimbursements amight help) . Marriage regime is irrelevant.  Also refer them to the government documents I referenced in previous posts. Make sure there is a written record of your visit to meet the 30 day deadline.

 Sorry to be brief, but I am pushed for time .

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Fittersmate, I have had a thought and I am going to suggest to you the following because I have used a similar "method" on something completely different but it does "spoonfeed them" and you will have done the work that is rightly theirs to do:

When you re-send your avis d'impots, do the following:

with a highlighter, go over all the relevant figures, go over the headings (retraites etc) that head the sections where the highlighted figures are to be found, make sure you highlight separately the figures that are yours and those that are the fitter's ([:)]), the totals of all the columns, etc.  What the hell, make a pretty looking bit of paper such as would please a kindergarten child!

Then write something to indicate that the figures soulignés à feurtre would tell them all they need to know about the nature of the revenue taxed, the amount and the source.

Do that with the marriage cert as well.  Highlight your maiden name, all your names and those of your husband, highlight the heading of the cert (it may well look different from a French one [;-)]) and do the same with the CPAM attestations, highlight the dates and anything else that you think need looking at.

I always think, when you want something from someone, make it EASY for them and they'd have less excuse not to grant your request.

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Mint and Parsnips and Hereford

Thank you so much for your replies. Went to CPAM today and got them to issue us with an Attestation de droits a l'assurance maladie. The very helpful lady has written on these documents that we have both been covered from August 2009 without interruption, signed and stamped with CPAM stamp. Hopefully this will satisfy them but not holding our breath! Will now photocopy all the attachments and send off tomorrow morning (lettre recommandée avec accusé réception).

Watch this space for the next delaying tactic!
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Thanks Hereford. Declarant 1 is now looking forward to his cheque.

 

Ladies out there might be interested to know that I did our declaration and put myself as Declarant 1 as i was doing the work! But, the tax office made me number 2!!and Mr. Black who only ever adds his signature number 1.

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I said I would keep everyone informed ..............................Just received a letter from Direction Generale des Finances Publiques advising that we have been granted a 'partial' reimbursement.

Euro 3K + reimbursed but Euro 198 not reimbursed !!! I don't think that we will be contesting the Euro 198.

What a result, many many thanks to Parsnip for all the assistance.
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please, Have I understood correctly that the monies CSG that we would like reimbursed can only have derived from our bank interest and not as I first thought from both bank interest and our income from gite that is only active for 4 months of the year. We are down as non proffesional and Have been led to believe that CSG is only on proffesional income, do you think that's correct.
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[quote user="Anna"]please, Have I understood correctly that the monies CSG that we would like reimbursed can only have derived from our bank interest and not as I first thought from both bank interest and our income from gite that is only active for 4 months of the year. We are down as non proffesional and Have been led to believe that CSG is only on proffesional income, do you think that's correct.[/quote]

Hi,

   From 2012 up to and including 2015 income from any investments , including shares , bank interest, rents etc is exonerated from CSG for all S1 holders , Just find suitable receipts or other evidence for CSG paid , to submit with your claim - which you need to get in by 31/12/2015 to get back 2012 CSG.

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I'm getting so fed up with our tax department! We sent them a shed load of documents in October which they acknowledged three times ( I assumed once for each year ). We then got a letter in November from head office agreeing to the CSG charged on our UK income but making no reference to the prepaid CSG on the assurance vies / french bank accounts etc. We then received an avis of degrevement in December from the local tax office for the 2014 CSG ( sans prepaid )and today received a cheque for 2/3rds of that. The way we're going we could end up owing them money! Every letter has a different reference number and is signed by a different person except for today's which isn't signed at all. My problem is I don't know if our claims for the CSG on the assurance vie & french bank accounts have been refused or not. The head office letter said if we wished to appeal, we had two months to apply to the court for a ruling but obviously I don't want to go down that route if the claim is just stuck somewhere else in the system.

We're going to have to go down to the local office early next year to find out why they made out a cheque for less than they said they were going to, what's happened to the 2013 and 2012 refunds, and do they know what's happening regarding the CSG deducted at source.

I would be very grateful if anyone can tell me if they have received refunds of CSG deducted at source and if so what tax office.

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  • 1 month later...
One tentative step at a time as my poor old brain can no longer multi-task.

After many steps already taken, I am now in the position to send off all the documents requested vis-a-vis our réstitution on social charges paid on UK investments.

Now for the French social charges taken at source, as outlined in Antonia's post above.  So, is it best to re-start the process, quoting the relevant legal precedent, regurgitating everything one has said before and re-submitting, this time, with the French statements of charges taken at source.

This year is the first time we've had any French investments pay interest and therefore these were not relevant in our previous submissions.

 

Apart from the above, can anyone tell me whether/if there is a time constraint to submission for the tax year 2015?

Parsnips, an answer from you would be great and much appreciated.

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Funnily enough, having recently been told "no" for our French investments. I have just this minute received an email from our tax inspector to say that he'd made a mistake ( yes really!). He's asked for some more documentation for some of the claims but not all so things are looking a lot more positive. If I were you I'd send the whole lot in together with one covering letter listing everything. That way all your claims will be registered at the same time.

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Can't do that now, Antonia, as I have already sent everything off relevant to interest on bank accounts and, most importantly, OH's annuities.

The interest from the PEL has only just come in.  So, if/when the reimbursement comes, I shall contact the man again immediately and ask whether I should send him the details of the PEL.

I look on all the hassle as just doing a job..........so much per hour, and that does make the gathering together of papers, the photocopying, the writing of emails, the writing of letters, the trips to the post office to send letters by registered post not nearly so tedious![:)]  

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  • 2 weeks later...
Went to local Tax Office today to ask if we still have to pay the first acompte as we have made a claim for CSG and as S1 holders we should not have to pay CSG on savings interest and dividends.

The Tax Inspector I spoke to, and who has in the past been helpful, did not appear to have any knowledge of this, saying CSG has to be paid on savings interest and dividends even if we have an S1, so I showed him various documents from the Ministere des Finances et des Comptes Publics. He read through them and then said "I have to make a copy of these" and went off to the photocopier.

When he returned he said, as expected, that we would

still have to pay the first acompte and then, if necessary, reclaim it at the end of the year. He also suggested that I should email the Tax Office at Vannes, who are dealing with our claim, to ask about progress.
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Thanks for that post - as a result, I've now given up checking whether they will suspend my first payment 2016 as I requested - it's clear they won't....

Have paid and will watch with interest (haha) as the year pans out to see if we'll get it all back or not. Will of course bang in online claims each time I pay just to keep the pressure on...
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[quote user="isitlunchtime"]Thanks for that post - as a result, I've now given up checking whether they will suspend my first payment 2016 as I requested - it's clear they won't....

Have paid and will watch with interest (haha) as the year pans out to see if we'll get it all back or not. Will of course bang in online claims each time I pay just to keep the pressure on...[/quote]

Er......I don't think they feel any pressure to do anything and yours will be the only blood pressure that is raised.  Sorry to state the obvious....

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Managed to have a fone chat to the taxperson in charge of the social contributions/expats files the other day. She reckons it will take another two months to get the files cleared as there are"a lot to do". Of course, she did not say if and how much, but at least it was some clear indication.
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[quote user="woolybanana"]Managed to have a fone chat to the taxperson in charge of the social contributions/expats files the other day. She reckons it will take another two months to get the files cleared as there are"a lot to do". Of course, she did not say if and how much, but at least it was some clear indication.[/quote]

Hi,

     The method for refunding CSG taken by banks and assurance cos is only now being sent to the tax offices, see this , up dated 05/02/2016;

http://patrimoine.lesechos.fr/patrimoine/impots/021422612874-bercy-propose-aux-non-residents-un-mode-demploi-pour-se-faire-rembourser-la-csg-1167937.php#  

This explains the on-going delay.

  For CSG wrongly taken in 2015 (2014 income) the last date is  ,I believe , 31/12/2017.    I would recommend doing it now.  For the CSG taken in 2016 (2015 income) which will be declared this spring , I recommend claiming as soon as the avis is received , quoting the same justification as before (conflict with reg 1408/71) - regardless of what the authorities may say about it no longer being refundable.   Their latest moves will be challenged at the European Court.

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Hi, I was told more or less the same in a rather dismissive reply to a polite email enquiry into the progress of my claim. I was told there was a huge backlog as many cases were held over while a decision was awaited from the Conseil d'Etat over how to deal with the issue after the Ruyter case. It was said that some unprocessed claims date back to 2013, so mine may have a long wait. Hopefully it will be worthwhile in the end!
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  • 1 month later...
I, too, like many others on here have just had my letter allowing for my claim minus the 2% from which there is no ducking.

I really don't mind how long they take to pay me back because I now know that they have agreed the sum.

The next thing is to write back, thanking the guy and saying BTW, here are the social charges I'd like to claim back on our 2 French savings accounts.  One step at a time and anyway I hadn't had the statement about tax on savings when I first wrote to the impots.

The purpose of this post is really to thank Parsnips for his invaluable guidance all along the way.  I feel like I have won the lottery as this is money that I hadn't expected to ever see again.

Parsnips, thank you from the bottom of my heart!

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[quote user="mint"]I, too, like many others on here have just had my letter allowing for my claim minus the 2% from which there is no ducking.

I really don't mind how long they take to pay me back because I now know that they have agreed the sum.

The next thing is to write back, thanking the guy and saying BTW, here are the social charges I'd like to claim back on our 2 French savings accounts.  One step at a time and anyway I hadn't had the statement about tax on savings when I first wrote to the impots.

The purpose of this post is really to thank Parsnips for his invaluable guidance all along the way.  I feel like I have won the lottery as this is money that I hadn't expected to ever see again.

Parsnips, thank you from the bottom of my heart!

[/quote]

Hi,

    Thank you for your kind words.   If you have other claims for past years , don't delay , as the time for claiming is limited to the 2 years following the year the income was received.

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