Tax declaration

[whistleway]

I'm told that this years tax forms have changed yet again. Just when I thought I'd got my head around it.

Can someone please tell me where my UK government pension and UK state pension are now entered on the 2047k and 2042k. I have no other income to declare. TIA

[Patf]

I'm stumped this year too. I've decided to go into the tax office with our figures and ask them where to put them (sounds like I might get a rude reply [:)])

[suein56]

For a friend who has the same pensions as you ie oap plus teaching pension (or other government pension) I have filled in the pink 2047 and the blue 2042 forms as follows :

2047 : Section 1, line 11 PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES

country - uk : royaume-uni

tick both columns for public/private and total both pensions and put in the revenu column.

Then Section 6 : Revenus imposables ouvrant droit à un crédit d'impôt ...

country - uk : royaume-uni

nature du revenu = pension de l'enseignement publique (in my case)

revenu avant déduction etc = amount of gross uk teaching pension

2042 page 3 : Section 1 : Pensions, Retraites, Rentes

Line 1AL for the teaching pension

Line 1AM for the state oap

Section 8 : Divers

midway down : the line : revenues de source étrangère ... ouvrant droit à un crédit d'impôt ... line 8TK - the gross teaching pension.

Line 8UU tick if you have an account or accounts in the UK and note the details of the account(s) on paper if you are making a paper declaration.

If this is wrong will someone please let me know before the form is posted !?! (winking face)

Sue

[Kong]

I think you have it right and it's what I'm doing. The rubric corresponds with last years entry on 2047. The public and private pensions are still lumped together on form 2047 but split apart on form 2042.. Sue your summary is very succinctly put - well done!

What changes will they make next year!! :o)

[Patf]

Thanks for that Sue.

Our income is similar, except that we've also got UK rental income, which has caused problems in the past. Our offices insisted at first that this should be taxed in France.

We've already paid a small amount of tax on it in the UK.

[whistleway]

Many thanks for the info, absolutely brilliant. I've copied and pasted it into a document for next year, that's if it doesn't change again.

[Judith]

Well, I'm afraid I entered it all in the same places as last year, 1AS etc and only altered where the forms had changed.  Right or wrong, quite frankly, they are SOOOO complicated that I rather suspect that most people get it wrong rather than right, though if the queues outside the tax office the other day when we passed were anything to go by, maybe not.

Whatever I do, I will never understand how they work out the tax, so something in the wrong place is something I'm not going to worry about.  Filled it out in good faith which is what is important.

[suein56]

Judith on a French person's 2042 line 1AS comes already filled in as the tax office usually know about the pension concerned. French people also pay some social contributions on their pension and I'm sure that you don't want to do that .

Sue

[Judith]

I always put in a statement regarding frais de sante etc - advice once given by Sunday Driver, of dear departed (from this forum) memory, however I will look again .. I have the time, though don't really wish to spend more time on it ...

I still wish they would not keep changing the forms though!

[andyh4]

2947K clearly states that the pension amounts go into boxes 1AL or/and 1AM.

I suspect the changes are there to specifically simplify things - for the tax people of course - not us. By inference anything filled out in these two boxes will attract social charges in the country outside of France, with the danger of course that even if you state the fact elsewhere, the new boy in the office will not see it or will disregard it.

I too hate changes and it has taken some time to get my head around what is just a simple change.

[NormanH]

I had assumed that the two boxes were there to distinguish clearly between

1)   a pension on which tax has been paid in the country of origin and is therefore not taxed in France but is  taken into account for the tax band in which any taxable income falls (and which attracts a 'crédit' as the way of avoiding a 'double imposition) . A local Government or Teacher's pension would be examples.

2) A pension such as the OAP which is taxable in France.

In other words the amount of first pension is used to determine which tax band the OAP falls into.

For those with an S1 neither of these pensions should attract social charges, but for those of us 'à la charge de le France' the amount in the second box is added to our French income  and subject to those charges.

To make sure that the OAP in the second box doesn't have social charges levied it's a good idea to mention that you are 'titulaire d'un formulaire S1..pas à la charge de le France' for those of you on an S1

[Nell]

NormanH says "mention that you are titulaire...... etc.

I can't find anywhere on-line to do this. I went to the tax office yesterday to ask a question about the "Tax applicable" (Field 234 on the 2047k) and the man in the tax office shrugged his shoulders and said he had no idea!!! (so much for asking the experts!!!)

I also posed the question as to where I could write a message (thinking of my usual S1 note) and was told it is not possible to write any kind of message on-line.

I was about to sign off on my on-line declaration, but now I think I need to go away and rethink "should I use blue form 1AS or 1AL for my private and state pensions.

[NormanH]

 

Line 1AM for the state OAP

I seem to remember the possibility of bring any information you wish to their attention at the end of the part dealing with income..

[Judith]

2947K?  Which form is this?  I certainly haven't used that one.

You can use an express mention, at the end, which is where I put the frais de sante.

I have also (for other purposes) used the messagerie online .. I got an answer which solved the problem, so that was sorted.

Still not had a chance to re-visit the form .. but it is on the pile ...  

I must admit that the changes in how you input online this year, not just where you put things,  are also very confusing ...

[andyh4]

2947K - a well known typo for 2047K

[Patf]

I got an email from them to say we should fill in the return online if our income was above a certain amount (can't remember how much.) But if this was difficult for you, continue to use the paper forms.

Judith - In the end I did what you said - entered amounts as near to the places of previous years on the forms and  hope for the best. I handed them in today.

I did notice though that while the exchange rate has dropped 8-10% (depending on the figure you use) our overall income has only dropped about 7%. Which is because of other compensatory increases.

Still not good for all of us whose income comes from the UK.

But might mean that we're back to nil income and house taxes.

[EmilyA]

We have declared on line for several years and have always put the (Sunday Driver) message in about the S1 form. It comes up automatically the next year with "reporter", so you click that and it carries forward.

[Judith]

[quote user="andyh4"]2947K - a well known typo for 2047K[/quote]

ha ha!  yes, of course - thanks Andy ...

[Judith]

[quote user="Patf"]I got an email from them to say we should fill in the return online if our income was above a certain amount (can't remember how much.) But if this was difficult for you, continue to use the paper forms.

Judith - In the end I did what you said - entered amounts as near to the places of previous years on the forms and  hope for the best. I handed them in today.

I did notice though that while the exchange rate has dropped 8-10% (depending on the figure you use) our overall income has only dropped about 7%. Which is because of other compensatory increases.

Still not good for all of us whose income comes from the UK.

But might mean that we're back to nil income and house taxes.

[/quote]

Yes, PatF,

I too found a considerable difference in "earnings" this year .. and I round down anyhow!  Sadly, we will still be paying tax ...

Whilst ever they make the forms so complicated I suspect that not only are punters not sure, but the tax examiners are also.  At least, let's hope so!

[Judith]

[quote user="suein56"]For a friend who has the same pensions as you ie oap plus teaching pension (or other government pension) I have filled in the pink 2047 and the blue 2042 forms as follows :

2047 : Section 1, line 11 PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES

country - uk : royaume-uni

tick both columns for public/private and total both pensions and put in the revenu column.

Then Section 6 : Revenus imposables ouvrant droit à un crédit d'impôt ...

country - uk : royaume-uni

nature du revenu = pension de l'enseignement publique (in my case)

revenu avant déduction etc = amount of gross uk teaching pension

2042 page 3 : Section 1 : Pensions, Retraites, Rentes

Line 1AL for the teaching pension

Line 1AM for the state oap

Section 8 : Divers

midway down : the line : revenues de source étrangère ... ouvrant droit à un crédit d'impôt ... line 8TK - the gross teaching pension.

Line 8UU tick if you have an account or accounts in the UK and note the details of the account(s) on paper if you are making a paper declaration.

If this is wrong will someone please let me know before the form is posted !?! (winking face)

Sue[/quote]

OK, looked again at the forms last night ... and coming back with questions.

Both of of us have 3 types of pension ... OAP, government and both private and company (which I know are treated together). 

So OAP goes in 1AM - cos I know it is taxed here.

Do private / company pensions also go in 1AM, or somewhere else, as they are also taxed.?

And then the government pensions (taxed in UK) in 1AL

Can someone confirm that is correct, and then I'll have to go re-adjust the figures and go online and change it.

I believe that what I've done on the 2047 is correct, and they all go in the same place as last year ? If so, I won't need to alter that one!

[Cathar Tours]

My father got it wrong and was summoned to the tax office. He was told that the OAP is classed as a social payment and therefore is not taxed in France.

If you have cashed in a pension under the new UK rules then you must prove you have reclaimed the tax in the UK and that it has been put in a French bank account (or wherever as long as it is in France) and you put the amount down as a pension. You don't pay tax on it, just social charges. That's why he got called in because there was no amount in that box for 2016 (he did it in 2015) and they didn't initially grasp that it was a one off payment. Lucky he photocopied all the stuff for HMRC and the French version and showed the receipt from his French bank for the HNRC cheque in Sterling that he deposited. Tax man was totally OK with this once he understood and confirmed he had done everything correct not just for 2016 but for 2015 as well. As to box numbers I have no idea as I don't pay tax in France.

[NormanH]

Please don't start the red herring that the OAP is not taxed in France.

That was dealt with a few years back.

The UK OAP is teaxable in France  and to stop it being taxed at source in the UK you need to fill in

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/452999/france-individual.pdf

it states

This form is for use by an individual resident of France receiving

•

a UK State Pension or Incapacity Benefit

[Cathar Tours]

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/tax-on-your-state-pension

Only if your tax resident in the UK and you have another income. UK OAP can be as high as about £180 per week under the old scheme but that's still well under the personal tax allowance of £11,500 so you won't pay tax in the UK.

As to not paying tax in France well all I can say is what they told my dad. I guess it depends what you define as tax. You will pay a social payment he was told. If you think that the social payment is a tax then your right.

[NormanH]

This thread is about making a tax declaration in France, not about being a tax resident in  the UK.

An English OAP is taxable as income in France, ( although if that is the only income most or all  of it would fall into the bottom 0% band , under 9,700 € after 10% has been taken off)   If there is other income to be taken into account then that has to be added in to determine which band the OAP is taxed in

Quotient familial

	Taux d'imposition 2016
Jusqu'à 9 700 €	0 %
De 9 700 à 26 791 €	14 %
De 26 791 à 71 826 €	30 %
De 71 826 à 152 108 €	41 %
Supérieur à 152 108 €	45 %

It  may also attract social charges if your health cover is "à ala charge de la France" which is not the case for those who have an S1 form.

[Cathar Tours]

Well you clearly know more about this than the French tax man. The proof will be when my dad gets his tax bill but he was defiantly told he won't be paying tax on his UK state OAP because it is classed as a social payment.

If it were me I would go see the French tax man and see what he says about what to put in what box.