English as she is spoke ?

[krusty]

Who remembers "it aint arf hot mum" ......Lardy da gunner Graham .....remind you of anyone ?

The upper crust always get the micky taken when they mix with lower classes, but dont get uptight there is room for all opinions.[:-))]

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="KathyF"]

The problem with spell checkers is that if the wrong word used (e.g pail rather than pale) is correctly spelt, the checker won't actually pick it up. [:(] In addition many people don't think to check their grammar, so the grammar checker never gets used. In my experience forum software doesn't offer spell-checking, so no help there, unfortunately. I really don't think there's any substitute for learning spellings by heart when we're young enough for them to stick.

[/quote]

This is true, but the grammar checker would pick this up, and I feel those professionals should be obliged to use it if they cannot use the language properly. There is no excuse imo for those people, it's lazyness. The editors are also failing in their jobs too. They should be picking these errors up too.

The Firefox browser has a spell checking add on that can be used and this is useful when using forums, so that option is open to people. There's even a British English version available! Isn't that nice of them? It's available on the Mozilla website in the add ons section.

[Thibault]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]"Sorry sir , I did not realise I was in the presence of a cultured, educated, intelligent person."

Yes, actually you are.

Why should I be ashamed of it or hide it, so as not to be ridiculed by posts like this?

That is exactly the sort of attitude I was referring to.

(And yes, before anyone needs to point it out, I know what a split infinitive is, and that certainly is one.)

Is it a peculiarly British thing, that we can take advice from someone who tells us about plumbing, and show respect to that person, but someone who has any form of 'academic' knowledge is instantly ridiculed? To what inadequacy does it speak?
[/quote]

 

Hear, hear, Dick

[AnOther]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]I just heard a reporter on the BBC referring to the cyclone in Burma causing 'indiscriminating' damage. A new one for me.[/quote]Unfortunately our American cousins are responsible for much of this bastardisation (lets see that get past the filter !)

What the he11 is "re-architected" for instance, or numerous other "non" words, all of which unfortunately escape me at this moment in time, or should that be, escape me at this moment in time, unfortunately [:$]

[quote user="LyndaandRichard"]On a forum, these things

are forgiveable. In the national press when you frequently see these

errors, it is quite disturbing as these are supposed to be the 'cream

of the literary crop'[/quote]The press, the cream of the literary crop, you are joking of course, they are some of the worst and most overt  offenders. The least said about the gutter press the better but even the quality broadsheets are far from innocent [:'(]

Mind you, doesn't this go to the heart of the topic though; if the press are indeed held up to be the 'cream of the literary crop' and are still making these gaffs what hope is there ?

[Cat]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]


Is it a peculiarly British thing, that we can take advice from someone who tells us about plumbing, and show respect to that person, but someone who has any form of 'academic' knowledge is instantly ridiculed? To what inadequacy does it speak?
[/quote]

If we follow your logic...I can take advice about plumbing, especially if I ask for it, but if a plumber were to walk totally uninvited into my bathroom and start ridiculing the plumbing system, I might reasonably be expected to take umbrage and tell him to wind his neck in. 

[Dick Smith]

Is that a message that I am unwelcome on this thread as well?

Or that you agree with Krusty in ridiculing the educated?

[Will]

I could have some sympathy with Cat's point of view if this was one of the topics where the criticism of English was an unrequested side issue to the main subject, but, unless I have totally misunderstood, this thread was started with the purpose of discussing the use (or abuse) of the English language on the forums. So therefore I am totally in agreement with Dick - surely the point of the forums, as enshrined in the code of conduct, is free, good mannered discussion. Not merely agreement with the moderators.

My personal view - and one with which I know the moderators disagree, so presumably I risk a warning myself - is that this forum represents, online, a stable of glossy magazines that should have high standards of production. So at least its moderators, as flag-bearers for the publications, should set an example themselves and be able to not only write in good English, but also encourage its correct use. I certainly discourage poor grammar and spelling on the web site for the magazine with which I am professionally involved, and would expect others to feel likewise.

[Dick Smith]

I think there is also a cognition issue.

[Will]

Style points:

Re: 'cream of the crop' - see http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010608

This also highlights other illogical idioms, which no doubt, like 'cream of the crop' owe their popularity to their alliterative sound. Two examples given are 'fit as a fiddle' and 'head over heels' - which, when you think about it, really means 'the right way up' rather than its more commonly accepted definition.

Also single and double quotes - my magazine style guide reserves double quotes for actual quotations, so single quotes are used in other cases (including the 'quote within quote'). This is common in journalistic style, but that doesn't necessarily make it any more or less correct than other uses. I would certainly disagree with the observation that using single quotes is, in some way, 'wrong'.

[krusty]

I am not wanting to ridicule the educated , but think of new comers who may be put off posting if you get slated for not using the correct grammar. But if people state their disdain of poor English , so too am I entailed to my opinion.

This forum is a mine of useful information and it comes from all classes of people.

[Tancrède]

[quote user="LyndaandRichard"]

There is no excuse imo for those people, it's lazyness.

The Firefox browser has a spell checking add on that can be used and this is useful when using forums…

[/quote]

There is no certainly excuse for lazyness if you have a spell-checker!

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="krusty"]

I am not wanting to ridicule the educated , but think of new comers who may be put off posting if you get slated for not using the correct grammar. But if people state their disdain of poor English , so too am I entailed to my opinion.

This forum is a mine of useful information and it comes from all classes of people.

[/quote]

Yes, it was ridicule. Whatever you try to say the morning after...

Have you seen the title of the thread?

What do you mean by 'entailed to your opinion'?

Making typos is easy, isn't it?

On the point of class, I was born and raised working class in a council house by concerned working class parents. I am not 'lah-di-dah' (note spelling). I am a south London bloke, always have been. Just educated, to a degree cultured, and intelligent.

So I don't really see what point you are making, other than ridicule. Do you feel threatened in some way by this discussion?

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="Gengulphus"][quote user="LyndaandRichard"]

There is no excuse imo for those people, it's lazyness.

The Firefox browser has a spell checking add on that can be used and this is useful when using forums…

[/quote]

There is no certainly excuse for lazyness if you have a spell-checker!

[/quote]

That's an interesting point, because there is no good reason why [lazyness] shouldn't be correct. But the spellchecker doesn't like it, beecause it follows that old, Dr Johnson Latinate spelling diktat.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

[quote user="ErnieY"]

[quote user="LyndaandRichard"]On a forum, these things

are forgiveable. In the national press when you frequently see these

errors, it is quite disturbing as these are supposed to be the 'cream

of the literary crop'[/quote]The press, the cream of the literary crop, you are joking of course, they are some of the worst and most overt  offenders. The least said about the gutter press the better but even the quality broadsheets are far from innocent [:'(]

Mind you, doesn't this go to the heart of the topic though; if the press are indeed held up to be the 'cream of the literary crop' and are still making these gaffs what hope is there ?

[/quote]

I couldn't think of a term to use for them at that time of night, and I was referring to the proper newspapers more so than the tabloids. These are professionals and the point is that it is their duty to get these basic things right. Imagine an accountant who can't add up (no funny remarks there about creative accounting etc), it's exactly the same.

I think the problem is that schools seem to think that creative thinking is far more important than basic spelling, punctuation etc. Creative thinking is important, but if you cannot spell or put your ideas across in a way others can understand, it is a complete waste of time anyway! Kids getting A's in English who cannot even spell is ridiculous, and I think that is where the problem is starting from.

And well done to the poster who spotted my deliberate mistake when I incorrectly spelt laziness. Didn't think many would pick that one up!

[krusty]

Remember this one from the Frost show

http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/tv/comedy/frostreport.htm

I know my place and I`m happy with it [:D]

[Tancrède]

[quote user="Dick Smith"][quote user="Gengulphus"][quote user="LyndaandRichard"]

There is no excuse imo for those people, it's lazyness.

The Firefox browser has a spell checking add on that can be used and this is useful when using forums…

[/quote]

There is no certainly excuse for lazyness if you have a spell-checker!

[/quote]

That's an interesting point, because there is no good reason why [lazyness] shouldn't be correct. But the spellchecker doesn't like it, because it follows that old, Dr Johnson Latinate spelling diktat.

[/quote]

I am entirely in favour of Latinate diktats myself, but they are irrelevant to the spelling of 'laziness'.  The form simply follows a common rule of English morphology which used to be learned in infants' school.

[powerdesal]

I have a place in Sharjah, but its not really my place and I'm not happy with it.

I have a place in France but I'm not there so I'm not happy about that.

What to do?

Woe is me.

[YCCMB]

If I can step slightly sideways from the topic, I'd like to ask why it is that people who do want to discuss correct spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. seem to be (according to those who disagree that these are important) such an open target for abuse and ridicule ?

On this particular thread, as it has been started to discuss the issue of grammatical errors, it seems that lots of people have stuck their heads over the parapet to agree that they find such errors irritating, or worse.

Recently, elsewhere in cyberspace, a similar discussion provided some insight into not only how proud people are of their problems with regard to the use of their native language, but how they view anyone who does use English correctly and stands up for it. Here are a few examples:

I do think people that pick up on others spelling mistakes are rather sad people or not that comfortable with themselves !! Life is too short to look down on others.(sic)

 

I just feel sorry for them and ignore them, it seems as though they have nothing better to do than scan through forums just to pick up on grammar and spelling mistakes.

 

I get infuriated when people try to show off their superior knowledge by picking up on someone's less than perfect efforts. I really don't understand where they are coming from, or what they are trying to prove.

 

The only possible motivation a poster could have for highlighting others' mistakes is a feeble attempt to boast about his/her own prowess.

I find it distasteful and rather pathetic.

 

it stems from an over compensation for a poor sense of self.

 

Based upon the above comments, it would appear that there is a large section of the population who are not only proud of their inability to use English correctly, but seem to believe that possessing this ability is a gift only visited upon the deeply psychologically disturbed. Should we, therefore, accept the fact that being able to spell, or to use our own native language correctly is a source of shame? It looks like it.[:(]

 

[Dick Smith]

"I am entirely in favour of Latinate diktats myself, but they are

irrelevant to the spelling of 'laziness'.  The form simply follows a

common rule of English morphology which used to be learned in infants'

school."

That form or rule being taken from Latin rather than English. Or at least a rather strange interpretation of English, based on Latin not having the letter 'y', if I recall. The fact that it has been taught does not alter the fact that it lacks logic.

Working backwards from the general rule that in English a long vowel is folowed by a short consonant and vice versa gets you further, as the 'i' is shorter than the 'y'. Possibly. (There might be a hole in that theory...)

[Cat]

For me, good spelling, grammar, punctuation  are important, and I try my best not to let myself down.  For others these kinds of things are not as important, as they have other priorities or prevailing interests.  I would never try to shoot down another poster for their spelling or grammatical mistakes, nor make a habit of pointing out their errors, that is just plain rude, and demonstrates a distinct lack of manners.

By all means stick to your standards, but don't try to belittle others if they fail to meet them. 

[Dick Smith]

Say what you mean - who do you think is belittling whom?

From your previous post you seem to think that ridiculing people who do write well is ok. Is that any different?

[Cat]

Quite the contrary, I admire people who write well.  I have no need to belittle anyone, as I am happy and secure enough in my own skin not to have to cry "bully" every time that someone disagrees with my point of view.  Writing well is so much more than simply observing the rules of grammar.

As I said several pages back, civility is very much like grammar, there are a few simple rules to learn, and I suffer poor grammar far better than poor manners.

 

[Dick Smith]

Could you say what you mean, please?

[Will]

Let me put it another way.

If I posted about doing something electrical in a house and wanting to join two wires, I had just removed an inch of insulation, twisted them together, and left them like that, dangling on the floor, I am sure plenty of  people would rush to condemn me for doing something incorrectly. But it works...

Likewise those of us who like to work to high standards in other respects like to use a decent standard of English language. I know you are probably even now rushing off a reply saying that nobody will be killed if we use an apostrophe wrongly, but that's not the point I am making. Standards are standards, and they apply in all walks of life.

Nobody's belittling anybody else - except, arguably, those who say that people who have high standards in language are somehow inadequate in other aspects of life. I can assure you that's far from the case. And when use of language is the subject of the topic, I fail to see how anybody  could gainsay this. It fits perfectly within the code of conduct.

[tegwini]

Thank you Will  and well put.

I am not such a purist or a pedant and I can ignore some errors. We all make spelling mistakes and typing errors.  I can accept the very common use of symbols instead of word e.g.  & / @ and so on,  as they do save time.   Split infinitives don't phase me either - didn't Churchill use them often?  I have a teacher friend who disapproves of word contractions in writing - didn't. can't  & etc. I can understand that,  but  I accept reality.     What we need to do is communicate better, and we can't really do this is we have 'in your face' mistakes, mistakes that are usually sorted out in primary school.

The trouble these days is that children, and adults read very little, and what is read often lacks any kind of intellectual challenge.    Life is short, and we as humans are programmed to be learning daily.    Using this forum I have gained a lot of knowledge on France & how to live there - useful as that's part of the plan.   Learning and improving my French is part of this plan, but if I can't speak and write English to a reasonable level,  I am unlikely to be able to do the same with French.  

Regards

tegwini