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Gordon Brown with Andrew Marr this morning.


Russethouse
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Yes Tegwini, I was being deliberately provocative to make a point, which is that the Palestinians have been herded into camps of various sizes when expelled from their homeland over the last 60 odd years and that those camps are in many way no different from camps used by the Nazis. Make parallels to make history make sense.

Israel has made no real attempt to achieve peace, or to give the Palestinians the chance to build a proper homeland. They have in fact created the conditions for this violence to take root and can now turn round and claim foul to the rest of the world. And with the Americans behind them, they can do what they like.

Of course Hamas and Hizboallah are a pain and the result of interference by foreign powers, but their very existence is a result of Israeli intransigence.

There is one solution which would work for the Palestinians: they should drop all arms and ALL simply walk back to Occupied Palestine at the same time, in family groups, in full sight of the international press. If those millions all marched together, quietly, non-violently, then Israel would not dare use violence, and the fences would soon come down by sheer weight of numbers. Then there would be a new sharing.

 

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[quote user="Bugsy"]We can argue the rights and wrongs of this conflict till the cows come home but one fact is clear, it will never be resolved by killing. I just find it so sad that lessons from history seem incapable of being learned by people in power. The innocents are always the ones who pay.

Get round the table and start talking you muppets.

[/quote]

 

Bravo Bugsy

 

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"Yes Tegwini, I was being deliberately provocative to make a point", Woolybanana

Yup Wooly, you sound like someone at a Neo-N*zi rally  - perhaps crabby today too?

BUT,  see my quote in previous post - the Palestinians will ONLY  make peace if Israel is destroyed - they say so all the time.   So it depends on whether you think Israel should exist or not.

 I do,  although I accept that there are wrongs on both sides.   I do not accept that refugee camps should be around for decades when the Palestians have powerful & rich supporters, who could re-build homes and all the necessary infrastructure.   After all,  the numbers are not that large.  

'Occupied Palestine' where's that ? Do you mean the West Bank ?  Other land taken after attacks from Arab neigbours over the years handed back.   Jordan has also taken some of the West Bank, but that seems to be forgotten.

Is this constant warfare part of a plan to destabilise the region and keep the conflict going for decades allowing them to justify their terrorist activities and blame Israel for all their problems, and hope to destroy Israel ?

Tegwini

 

 

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[quote user="tegwini"]

"Yes Tegwini, I was being deliberately provocative to make a point", Woolybanana

Yup Wooly, you sound like someone at a Neo-N*zi rally  - perhaps crabby today too?

BUT,  see my quote in previous post - the Palestinians will ONLY  make peace if Israel is destroyed - they say so all the time.   So it depends on whether you think Israel should exist or not.

 I do,  although I accept that there are wrongs on both sides.   I do not accept that refugee camps should be around for decades when the Palestians have powerful & rich supporters, who could re-build homes and all the necessary infrastructure.   After all,  the numbers are not that large.  

'Occupied Palestine' where's that ? Do you mean the West Bank ?  Other land taken after attacks from Arab neigbours over the years handed back.   Jordan has also taken some of the West Bank, but that seems to be forgotten.

Is this constant warfare part of a plan to destabilise the region and keep the conflict going for decades allowing them to justify their terrorist activities and blame Israel for all their problems, and hope to destroy Israel ?

Tegwini

 

 

[/quote]

Well said and unfortunately that was the case in my opinion with the PLO. Arafat had a "cause" and if he had really wanted he could have made peace and a Palestine for his "people". But instead he pocketed millions and still had people hoodwinked to the end. His power was his so-called cause and terrorism was his "raison d'etre" and never wanted it to end in spite of it hurting the Palestinians themselves. This is exactly the case with Hamas. They do not want peace they do not want an Israel. How can you negotiate with that? But many here just think that Israel can sit down at the table with a terrorist group that want to annihilate you and make peace. I know force isn't the answer but what is? What will work in the face of aggression and no desire for peace?

I agree about the disgusting comments that Woolybanana has made. It would certainly sit perfectly with the likes of the BNP.

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[quote user="tegwini"]

BUT,  see my quote in previous post - the Palestinians will ONLY  make peace if Israel is destroyed - they say so all the time.  

Tegwini

[/quote]

If I can take you to task on that statement TW, it's a sweeping generalisation thats not totally true. Certain Palestinians, yes, would be happy to see the end of Israel, just as certain Israilis would like to see the destruction of Palestine.

You only had to watch the Israeli Foreign Minister Mr Shitmeer (I kid you not), on television last night to see one in action.. When asked about the UN school bombing and the inocent children who died he said, and I quote,  "So what".

There are many, by far the vast majority of both countries, who would, I'm sure, be quite happy, given the chance,  to live in peace.

As I posted earlier, guns and bombs are not the answer, talking is.

Gary.

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Both sides will keep producing children to grow up to fight each other Both sides will instill hatred in them of each other ..Both sides will hold their hands out for cash to keep it going.... the Isrealis from their brothers in the USA ....the Palistinians from theirs in the oil rich Arab states ...Both sides will preach propaganda in the tit for tat blame game...It will only ever stop when some non Jewish non Muslim body has the guts to ignor Jewish and Arab interests and forces them to live together on pain of punisment to both sides ...The UN with a big army of Christian and Indian Hindu troops might do it ...but will the UN act ?....I boubt it very much ..so it will go on for another 60 years ..Anybody want to guess how long it takes for the setlement builders to rush into the land just occupied in Gaza....wont be long as I cant see the army pulling out for ages
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A personal viewpoint:-

The wealthy Arab states (KSA etc) do not want the Palestinians to make peace with Israel. At the moment Israel is a convenient focus for the hatred of the ordinary inhabitants of the other Arab Countries. If peace existed then those ordinary people may have cause to look at their own leaders and find reasons to be unhappy. This, I think, particularly applies to KSA, whose rulers are in the most vulnerable position.

The Israelis are, to some extent, their own worst enemy  as they inculcate a 'victim mentality' in their future generations, as Jewish people around the World tend to do (IMHO) based on the events of WW2. This makes them much more insular and they (over)react to any action against their state. Paranoia seems an adequate description, everyone is always against them.

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Powerdesal: I agree, the arab nations will never support peace with Israelis because they, like Palestine, want Jerusalem.  The emnity goes back to Esau and Jacob.

Frederick: The UN are a complete wet blanket.  Where were they in Rwanda, Zimbabwe, etc...  The only time countries wade in in crises like these is to protect their own (largely financial) rights (e.g. oil in Kuwait).  In the equation between money / power and human life, human life always loses.

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[quote user="powerdesal"]A personal viewpoint:-

The wealthy Arab states (KSA etc) do not want the Palestinians to make peace with Israel. At the moment Israel is a convenient focus for the hatred of the ordinary inhabitants of the other Arab Countries. If peace existed then those ordinary people may have cause to look at their own leaders and find reasons to be unhappy. This, I think, particularly applies to KSA, whose rulers are in the most vulnerable position.

The Israelis are, to some extent, their own worst enemy  as they inculcate a 'victim mentality' in their future generations, as Jewish people around the World tend to do (IMHO) based on the events of WW2. This makes them much more insular and they (over)react to any action against their state. Paranoia seems an adequate description, everyone is always against them.


[/quote]

I am not Jewish or Israeli but if I lived in Israel I would hardly classify the stance the neighbours make with paranoia. They have had to make very difficult and not always good choices in order to survive. I wouldn't call that paranoia. But I agree with your other comments 100%. It is a very handy cause for some of the Arab countries otherwise they would have helped a lot more than they have in addition to supplying weapons like Iran and Syria or even "taken in" the Palestinians ages ago. As I have said before they have been used as pawns.

I was very surprised to see that the BBC although obviously still slanted was a little more balanced tonight in comparison of some of what is actually happening there at the moment.

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Powerdesal

I knew lots of Jews at University in Johannesburg (Witwatersrand) one third Jewish is the 70s.  No longer like that now -  a diaspora took place from there to all parts & I heard a SAfrican today on the radio as an Israeli spokesman.  Many living in Israel now with a SA 'can-do' attitude.

None were suffering from paranoia - the opposite in fact. When the Yom Kippur war took place and was going badly many hundreds, maybe thousands  flew out to Israel to do what they could.   And there was support with sales of everything in the city hall and other fund raising.  The Israeli army was taken by surprise and was massively outnumbered in many aspects - men, weapons, tanks, and the huge number of countries supporting the invasion into Israel.

A scary scenario, and the young students seemed    rather gung-ho I thought, and campus went very quiet with some lectures cancelled.    Many had had some training in the SA army, not all, and the war initially went badly - perhaps defeat might follow ?   But they went,  all   missing  that  year's  exams & wasting a year of university.  

They were rather like the Israeli army they had the 'never again' outlook and certainly not paranoia.   They reflected the ceremony at Masada to stand fast & fight whatever the cost.  No other choice. Not unlike the rescue from Entebbe - only the Israeli army would succeed in something like this.

I have never visited Israel, but I certainly knew lots of Jewish people,  some first generation holocaust survivors, and refugees from Germany, and  I certainly understand their fears for the future of Israel.

Tegwini

 

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No problem - proud to be  A Witsie. A university that always opposed the National Party government & apartheid, insisted on academic freedom & had students from all races.  No prejudices there - unlike certain parts of the world.

Tegweni

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My lasting memories of my time in Israel were the lines of tanks and bus loads of soldiers heading for the Golan Heights, Bethlehem bristling with armed soldiers, the affluence of the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem compared with the abject poverty of the Arab quarter - and the insistent assurances of the Jewish Israelis that everything was wonderful and harmonious - a view that completely belied everything I saw around me. 

The Israelis have the same belief in a 'Holy War' that the Muslims do - Muslims that are condemned for that view by the rest of the western world.  Surrounded by Jews in your college years, tegwini, you have taken the viewpoint of the Israelis; I found the opposite.  I was brought up with a Jewish extended family and was taught 'God blesses those who bless the Jews'.  I have found that view increasing irreconcilable with my belief that human life is precious.  Having experienced aparthied first hand one would have thought that your SA Jewish friends would have been more tolerant to racial differences - but maybe this is because they were the whites in an aparthied regime?  Similarly, having been subject to oppression and hatred, one would have thought Israelis would have been more compassionate with others in that same position - particularly as, historically, their persecution has come from western nations (Germany) and not Palestine.  Indeed the ten commandments require them to 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'.  This seems to have been forgotten in their ruthless drive to regain the 'land of milk and honey'.

Sad - very, very sad. 

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Many South African jews were very strong and brave opponents of apartheid, but they were, perhaps paradoxically, strong supporters of the Israeli state, funneling huge amounts of money, fighting and influencing the white South African government to cooperate in many ways. They were the strongest supporters of the Israeli apartheid whilst fighting it in RSA.
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[quote user="Scooby"]My lasting memories of my time in Israel were the lines of tanks and bus loads of soldiers heading for the Golan Heights, Bethlehem bristling with armed soldiers, the affluence of the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem compared with the abject poverty of the Arab quarter - and the insistent assurances of the Jewish Israelis that everything was wonderful and harmonious - a view that completely belied everything I saw around me. 

The Israelis have the same belief in a 'Holy War' that the Muslims do - Muslims that are condemned for that view by the rest of the western world.  Surrounded by Jews in your college years, tegwini, you have taken the viewpoint of the Israelis; I found the opposite.  I was brought up with a Jewish extended family and was taught 'God blesses those who bless the Jews'.  I have found that view increasing irreconcilable with my belief that human life is precious.  Having experienced aparthied first hand one would have thought that your SA Jewish friends would have been more tolerant to racial differences - but maybe this is because they were the whites in an aparthied regime?  Similarly, having been subject to oppression and hatred, one would have thought Israelis would have been more compassionate with others in that same position - particularly as, historically, their persecution has come from western nations (Germany) and not Palestine.  Indeed the ten commandments require them to 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'.  This seems to have been forgotten in their ruthless drive to regain the 'land of milk and honey'.

Sad - very, very sad. 
[/quote]

Yes very very sad indeed. I guess you believe the Israelis are meant to love their neighbour while the neighbour annihilates them. I notice you don't hold the neighbours accountable for nowt.

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[quote user="Scooby"] ...  Indeed the ten commandments require them to 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'.  This seems to have been forgotten in their ruthless drive to regain the 'land of milk and honey'. 

 
[/quote]

Wrong, Scooby.

"To love thy neighbour as thyself" was a new and revolutionary concept introduced by a carpenter from Nazareth. The traditional Jewish response is "an eye for an eye". In other words, measured response proportionate to the offence.

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[quote user="Clarkkent"]

[quote user="Scooby"] ...  Indeed the ten commandments require them to 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'.  This seems to have been forgotten in their ruthless drive to regain the 'land of milk and honey'. 

 
[/quote]

Wrong, Scooby.

"To love thy neighbour as thyself" was a new and revolutionary concept introduced by a carpenter from Nazareth. The traditional Jewish response is "an eye for an eye". In other words, measured response proportionate to the offence.

[/quote]

That's not correct, Clark. The phrase was probably learnt by Jesus from Leviticus 19v18: "you shall love your fellow as yourself."

Believe it or not, most Jews try to follow this precept.

 

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Wooly

I don't care who uses these terms, we all know what went on in the concentration camps in N*azi Germany - can't compare the two.

Any more than the 'original' concentration camps established by the British during the Anglo-Boer war - only incompetence led to death there.  

N*azi camps intended to kill.

Tegwini

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