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Gordon Brown with Andrew Marr this morning.


Russethouse
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I guess from a world wide perspective the fact that there are so many Jews in the American government is always going to mean that they will weigh in on the Israeli side - unless Barack Obama has the courage to change the situation.... ??

Apparently there are already militant groups saying he is muslim etc

Edit - Tegwini - Israel the underdog, with the US forever on it's side ? Are you sure ?[8-)]

 

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Well said Tegwenin and in a very reasoned response. I can imagine that after reading such complete rubbish many here want to say just a little bit more than "respect", I will not even comment on a few of the latter comments..  But it does show what a few people here are really like. It is a shame that people are using the poor Palestinians as a pawn by supporting the likes of Hamas for whatever their reasons might be. Very sad.
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WJT, I'm sorry - I think you are slightly judging other people on here amiss neither do I think that calling anyone elses view 'rubbish' is helpful - I do not support Hamas or think their acts of agression are the right way to proceed in any way shape or form - however I also  think that Israel is quite wrong to take the action that they have - 500 dead and 2500 injured!

Surely there is a better way than this ?

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"IMHO one of the single biggest causes of 9/11 was the Israel / Palestine conflict.  The US brought the war of terror on themselves...and we've been sucked in".  Scooby

So an Egyptian engineer, the son of a Saudi millionaire etc etc (not forgetting the odd English  born terrorist activity in London, Cardiff etc) can justify the slaughter of thousands because of a conflict in the middle east ?? 

Not that long ago people were explaining 9/11 because of the Iraq war which was years later,  and sad to use any excuses for slitting the neck of an air hostess or pilot !

All this talk reminds me of Neville Chamberlain going to meet Hitler in 1936 at Munich.  Here the British were instrumental in helping to give away most of Czechoslovakia to  Hitler, and then later at Yalta we helped to hand over Poland, and most of Eastern Europe to Stalin, Mugabe is another example.

So,   should we always give in to evil,  appease terrorists or always seek compromise???

Tegwini

 


 

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I have made a slight modification:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for the Palestinians,
there was no one left to speak out.

Adapted from Martin Niemöller

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[quote user="woolybanana"]

I have made a slight modification:

When they came for the Palestinians,
there was no one left to speak out.

Adapted from Martin Niemöller

[/quote]

 

Well, judging by the various posts on this thread, your last statement is not true.

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Wooly

Ironic  mis-quote this - it's about compromise & giving in to evil, which people did in pre-war Germany.  Leading to the Holocaust, which murdered millions of Jews, and many other unpopular minorities.  That's what Niemoller was saying.  Not appropriate here. 

Lots of people to speak up for the Palestinians - protect march of thousands last weekend in London, doubtless with various threatening, nasty signs and posters.  We allow this, but  would  it be allowed in a similar context in a middle eastern country?  Doubtful. 

And millions in the middle east supporting them - and opposing  the smallest state. And even killing Jews in Bombay.  Palestinians  are certainly NOT the persecuted as in Pastor Niemoller's writing- quite the opposite - and I do  worry about the future the way the way these countries'  populations are increasing - almost exponentially .

And some information not often considered :

Jordan was in control of the West Bank and Egypt was in control of Gaza. Had they so desired, they could have established a Palestinian state in these areas.  (in 1948 +)

It is sobering to reflect that the Arab oil revenue generated in one day even in 1949, would have sufficed to solve the entire Arab refugee problem. But this was not to be.  

Israel signaled to the Arab states its willingness to relinquish virtually all of the territories captured during the battle, in 1967, in exchange for a genuine peace. 

  During an interview in 1980, Yasser Arafat, the Chairman of the PLO, explained his organization's point of view. As he put it, “Peace for us means the destruction of Israel.”   

In case you're wondering I am not Jewish - just an experienced, educated and interested teacher, and able to empathise with the peoples of Israel.

Tegwini  

 

 

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Nobody speaks for the Palestinians except the vociferous and powerless mob. What are their rights? Be kicked our of their homeland mainly at the barrel of a gun and then told to bug ger off elsewhere as others will have them so that the West can salve its guilty conscience. There would have been peace if the West had played evenly but it did not. And now Hamas, created out of Palestinian frustration at being enclosed in a Gazan concentration camp by Israeli guns and not allowed a port, an airport or even the right to travel freely.

If the UN had played its part as a buffer a Palestinian State could have existed but the Israelis never wanted it therefore nor did the Americans. Now, it is guns, guns, guns and I see no solution and no statesmen around to find and enforce a solution. Certainly not Blarney Blair.

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Wooly

Gaza has a long coast line, & a frontier with Egypt- nothing to stop the Gazans from developing their state, & getting help from their Arab friends.

I understand why the Israelis built walls around Israel, and also sought to control who comes into their country.  The terrorists used children, women with bombs strapped under their clothes, as if pregnant, and others- fanatics willing to die for a cause - or is it the numerous heavenly virgins ?  Another mis-use of females.  What about female terrorists? No male virgins for them no doubt!  And terrorist leaders sending their own children out as suicide bonbers- awful!

So many peoples moving around - if everybody had to go back to their land of origin- then big changes needed, but the Jews were always in the Holy Lands, and the diaspora only took place around AD 80, but many Jews stayed put. Jerusalem was firstly a sacred site for the Jews, then the Christians, and hundreds of years after the Christians,  for Islam.  But it's the only site for Judaism, Islam has its own sites in Saudi Arabia - eg  Mecca, where non-Muslims are not allowed.

More bias on the BBC right now- almost nothing on who started this conflict in Gaza.

Tegwini

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I think the first people to plant a bomb in a building to further their cause and kill the innocent were the Irgun a zionist terrorist organisation who blew up the British Headquarters in the King David Hotel and killed 91 people lot of them British. That taught the world that terrorism can get you what you want in the end ...Begin was involved he ended up Prime Minister That was before Isreal existed ...22 July 1946...We had Police Officers in Palistine being shot by Zionists in the back along with soldiers .....most people seem to have forgotten those days Isreal was created from killing those who got in their way.
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[quote user="tegwini"]

 I used to have  more moderate views on the Middle East before September 2001, and  this changed also because of the changes that are taking place in my birthplace (England), but now really do support the underdog, the little beseiged country of Israel-  perhaps that's a 'British thing' too.

[/quote]

Ironic the last line about the 'British thing' - Palestine was turned over to Jewish hands after the British withdrew due to repeated terrorist attacks and kidnappings of British servicemen and civilians by the Israeli Haganah 'defence organisation'.  Twenty British soldiers and civilians were killed on March 2 1947 a further 4 British police and 8 soldiers were killed and 12 civilians were injured on April 24 and finally 2 British soldiers were kidnapped and hanged on July 18 (their names - in case anyone wants to know - Sergeant Mervyn Paice aged 43 and Sergeant Clifford Martin aged 20).  Despite restrictions on immigration imposed by the UN as a condition of the granting of the State of Israel, Israel allowed massive numbers to enter her borders - way beyond the numbers agreed at the date of partition on 30 November 1947.  The Israelis further enraged the arabs by blatantly stating their intention to disregard the immigration limits set by the UN.

This pattern of mass immigration and extension of their 'borders' into Palestine territories has continued - and you wonder why the Arabs are p1ssed off??  After sixty years of that sort of intimidation I'd consider suicide bombing!!

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Thank Bobo that the Zionists never heard this first:

They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within
I'm coming now, I'm coming to reward them
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin
I'm guided by a signal in the heavens
I'm guided by this birthmark on my skin
I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin

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The 2 British sergeants were hung in a building then taken later to the Orange grove where they were hung up in the trees British soldiers not expecting to find booby trapped bodies of their pals were badly hurt taking them down......another lesson to learn from the Irgun we put bombs in murdered soldiers bodies ....
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What a terrible state of affairs this is and yet another example that will go down in history as to the stupidity of man.

Israel believing they somehow have a 'God' on their side.

Hamas believing they somehow have a 'God' on their side.

George Bush supporting Israel, surely the most stupid and dangerous president the US has ever had.

Crazy, just bloody crazy.

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George Bush supporting Israel, surely the most stupid and dangerous president the US has ever had.

And how !

I searched for one of those Jan 20th T shirts after I saw a friend wearing one....

But the pro Israel lobby in Washington can never be under estimated, the question is,  how will Obama handle it ?

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"In many ways, gas chambers were quicker and kinder!!![/quote Woolybanana]

A really awful  & outrageous comment Wooly.

There are villages & towns in Israel near the Gaza border which which have been shelled for over 6 years, one Sderot with 24,000 people is the most targeted in the world.   2000 Qassams have fallen on it killing & injuring many.  Only because of  careful planning and precautions -  eg a school air raid shelter is actually the playground has there not been a  huge massacre.  

 The Israelis gave up Gaza, where they had spent lots of the infrastructure for peace - who can blame them if after many years they are sick of the fanatics whose only ambition in life is to kill and to destroy their country ?

Tegwini

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Well said tegwini.

The Israel  /Lebanon border is another area which has been under attack for many years. The towns and kibbutzes have bomb shelters which are regularly used. Or were in the past. Driving along there all buildings were pockmarked by shells, rockets etc.

Having said that, the current loss of life, especially on the side of the Palestinians, is tragic, a real nightmare.

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We can argue the rights and wrongs of this conflict till the cows come home but one fact is clear, it will never be resolved by killing. I just find it so sad that lessons from history seem incapable of being learned by people in power. The innocents are always the ones who pay.

Get round the table and start talking you muppets.

.

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