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tegwini
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[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"]

Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece     [6]

[/quote]

 

Crumbs - what happened in 2004?

Incredible rise that year, had stoning been temporarily lifted?

If they had just put a little more into it and managed another 157 they could have doubled in number! - must try harder next time.

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Thank you TandemPilot for posting that link.

 

"If they had just put a little more into it and managed another 157 they could have doubled in number!" quote Dog

 

Yes, fastest increase,  I suspect,  of any part of the population ever.

The comments under are also an interesting reflection of the concern of many UK citizens.

Tegwini

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[quote user="woolybanana"]

There is far too much racism creeping into these posts.

[/quote]

You must be correct. The definition is all encompassing.

Racism is defined as 'Any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person'.

Obviously when lawyers get invoved it gets less clear.

Personally I am more concerned with specism.

 

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'Quote'

How arrogant!

What about the white ghettos - habited by pushers, junkies, pimps and prostitutes - and the Friday and Saturday nights with louts pi ssed out of their heads and the loutish girls flashing their boobs and backsides at any passing bloke.  Funnily I don't recall seeing many Pakistanis in this group.  . 

 

Was this person born in a white getto?


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23632106-details/Muslim+convert+is+jailed+for+18+years+over+nail+bombing/article.do

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Dog wrote:

Racism is defined as 'Any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person'.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I doubt that.  It would mean almost anything could be racist - the law is not that much of an a*s!

And, since when is Islam a race ? 

Hindus manage to integrate. Our friend Chandar is quick to point out he is Hindu not Muslim because he looks to some people, similar.  He and his family have completely integrated.

For those with little knowledge of what it would be like to live in a society which is controlled using fear and violence - as in many Moslem states,  try BBC2  NOW- The world at war, with the rise of the N*azis, book burning, totalitarism at its worse.  But some Moslem states NOW are similar. 

Tegwini

edit- can't believe, that by mistake I managed to use the quote facility- but not correctly!

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="Dog"][quote user="Tandem_Pilot"]

Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece     [6]

[/quote]

 

Crumbs - what happened in 2004?

Incredible rise that year, had stoning been temporarily lifted?

If they had just put a little more into it and managed another 157 they could have doubled in number! - must try harder next time.

[/quote]

 

Yes, BUT, Look at the other European states - we're well behind with our quota [:D]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4385768.stm

 

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What happened in glasgow was terrible and put good relations with the Muslim community back a long way - because one was a doctor. It shocked me to the core- and upset my muslim colleagues, neighbours and friends beyond belief, as THEY suddenly became suspicious- despite their education and integrated life-style. But Tegwini- do you thin it is better to behave like the French, were 'secularity' requires those who want to integrate to become more French than the French and lose all their identity and culture- and where the others become totally separate, without hope of a job of any aspirations - bitter and angry. Or is it best to 'embrace' the best of Islam and allow people to integrate AND keeping touch with their roots. Which way do you feel is likely to result in better relations and a better future for all? Whether you and many like it or not, we have a large immigrant population, with many Muslims, who believe and behave very differently depending on the 'faction' they belong too (like Christians - I know many Christians who do not believe in the resurrection and others who are extreme creationists).

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Odile,

Whilst your idea that it is better to 'embrace the best of Islam and allow people to integrate AND keeping touch with their roots.' is a somewhat ideal solution I fear that it is somewhat 'rose-tinted'.

The ordinary, well adjusted majority of Muslims already do integrate (to some extent), it is an unfortunate fact that the 'hardline' Muslims appear to be driving the sharia agenda and appear to be gaining ground, not least because the greater majority will not 'stand up and be counted' against the fire brands.

In the eyes of a ''true'' Muslim there is no cherry picking of embracing the best of Islam, its all or nothing, for their own community and for the unconverted kaffirs. The Koran clearly instructs a true Muslim to convert non Muslims or kill them, there are no half measures.

There are, as you say, different factions of Christianity but none of them, as far as I know, advocate killing those who don't or won't agree with them. That is the  primary difference.

A question that comes out of the whole debate is why do so many Muslims come to an avowed non-Muslim country in the first place?' If a substantial number do not like the Western way of societal behaviour why come, surely they would be happier in a Muslim country which has the rules and mores that they support.

There is a lot wrong with behaviour in the current Western society, examples have been quoted on this thread and I am sure most of us agree that some behaviour is despicable, however, the answer is not the adoption of Sharia and Islam but a reversion to our 'old fashioned' values that stem, in the main, from Christianity honed over thousands of years of progress and education. That does not of course imply that all Christian beliefs are right or should be accepted at face value, each to his own in that respect.

Personnally I have no desire to have my beliefs inflicted on me, I can make up my own mind, I do however want the freedom to do just that.

I have no problem with immigrants or the concept of immigration but I do feel it should be controlled such that numbers of those immigrants with an 'alien' culture are given time to fully integrate before more are added. The present UK situation would seem to have gone 'over the top' and the indigenous population do not like it. Perhaps not unsurprisingly, niether do a lot of the already integrated immigrants. Unfortunately their voices are lost as are the voices of the indigenous population.

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["But Tegwini- do you thin it is better to behave like the French, were 'secularity' requires those who want to integrate to become more French than the French and lose all their identity and culture" - quote Odile

 

No Odile - I'm for the melting pot idea - as in the USA.  Their Muslims are more integrated, and  have not got involved in attacks on their homeland, as in the UK.   

  Clearly the British way (multiculturalism) does not work.   And  it seems to me that there is more integration in France too.  I can't imagine that 2 or more generations of Muslims living for decades in France do not manage to speak the French language, as does happen in the UK with English.

Regards

Tegwini

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...who believe and behave very differently depending on the 'faction' they belong too (like Christians - I know many Christians who do not believe in the resurrection and others who are extreme creationists). quote Odile

Odile-

I was a subject head in a severe Christian sect (Exclusive Brethren) senior school.   And,  I am a bit of a ''not sure' regarding religion. 

Very fundamental beliefs (google them!) almost a bit weird really, none of the teachers are members as they (the Brethren) disapprove of tertiary education.

BUT, although they seriously disliked the  amoral,  irreligious, chaotic society they lived in,  and did not integrate, they do not  break the law.  

Obviously they have flaws, and it is easy to pick holes in some of their ideas, but although being different, and largely outside of mainstream society they would no more attempt to kill, destroy or weaken our society than fly to  the moon!!!

I enjoyed teaching them:  gentle,  very hard working,  polite,  some really clever kids, and always respectful unlike many Muslim boys with female teachers. 

If this is an extreme  fundamentalist Christian sect,   it is much preferred by me to some of the extreme Islamic ones and unlike the latter presents no dangers to our society.

Regards

Tegwini

 

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[quote user="tegwini"]

...who believe and behave very differently depending on the 'faction' they belong too (like Christians - I know many Christians who do not believe in the resurrection and others who are extreme creationists). quote Odile

Odile-

I was a subject head in a severe Christian sect (Exclusive Brethren) senior school.   And,  I am a bit of a ''not sure' regarding religion. 

Very fundamental beliefs (google them!) almost a bit weird really, none of the teachers are members as they (the Brethren) disapprove of tertiary education.

BUT, although they seriously disliked the  amoral,  irreligious, chaotic society they lived in,  and did not integrate, they do not  break the law.  

Obviously they have flaws, and it is easy to pick holes in some of their ideas, but although being different, and largely outside of mainstream society they would no more attempt to kill, destroy or weaken our society than fly to  the moon!!!

I enjoyed teaching them:  gentle,  very hard working,  polite,  some really clever kids, and always respectful unlike many Muslim boys with female teachers. 

If this is an extreme  fundamentalist Christian sect,   it is much preferred by me to some of the extreme Islamic ones and unlike the latter presents no dangers to our society.

Regards

Tegwini

 

[/quote]

So Teg were you in the Bretheren? - I have known Plymouth Bretheren and was aware there were a more fundamentalist branch where I lived in UK. From your post it seems not but these people have strong ideals and they must have rubbed off to a point on you.

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[quote user="Tandem_Pilot"][quote user="Dog"][quote user="Tandem_Pilot"]

Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece     [6]

[/quote]

 

Crumbs - what happened in 2004?

Incredible rise that year, had stoning been temporarily lifted?

If they had just put a little more into it and managed another 157 they could have doubled in number! - must try harder next time.

[/quote]

 

Yes, BUT, Look at the other European states - we're well behind with our quota [:D]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4385768.stm

 

[/quote]

 

Very impressive but no examples of breeding rates. If they did it by replication alone in UK that was praise worthy.

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"So Teg were you in the Bretheren? - I have known Plymouth Bretheren and was aware there were a more fundamentalist branch where I lived in UK. From your post it seems not but these people have strong ideals and they must have rubbed off to a point on you".  quote Dog

Not the Plymouth Brethren - the Exclusive Brethren, they fell out with the PBs a century or so ago. And split from another Brethren group too a few decades ago.   More severe than the PBs I think.  They do have strong views and it's hard not to respect their work ethic,  honesty and spiritual values.

Little rubbed off on me, zero of their doctrines,  other than they were a pleasure to teach, and that's rare in the UK.    I am now in a top grammar school (part-time) and although it has the cream of the crop I do miss the Brethren kids. And have some respect for them as a church/cult ...

I was not  IN the Brethren- my post made clear that they disapprove of tertiary education so have to employ outsiders,  (worldlies)  graduate teachers to comply with UK law.

I only mention this as fundamentalist Christians were mentioned -   I found then to be quite charming, and of no risk whatsoever to the UK.

Tegwini


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I am surprised at your comment re integration on Muslims in France. Have you ever lived in a large town in France, in particular in some of the high rise suburbs? Failure in schools and unemployment rates are huge among so called Beurs. Often 2nd or 3rd generation, they are hardly represented in the Elites, or in the 'professions liberales', in the judiciary. One of my Morrocan born friend lived with us for more than 2 years and in the UK for 8. As a young woman with a deug in IT she was already very unusual (her parents put her in a Catholic school so she would have a chance- as they knew she would get nowhere in the ZUP school where they lived). Despite her quaifications she was totally unable to find a job in France- as soon as she mentionned her name or turned up, doors shut in her face. She came with the Da Vinci programme and was offered a post because of her skills and manner - irrespective of her religion (she is a strict Muslim) or sex. she found accomodation without problems, made many many friends. she had never experienced this. She bought a little house in the end, and made a huge profit before having to return to France because of her mother's health. when she returned, despite 8 years experience at Senior level, she took ages finding a job. Despite a big was of cash in her pocket, she found it alsmost impossible to find a flat, or a bank loan.  She went with her sister and friends to a Club - all got in apart from her and sister. And of course nobody to complain to! Her sister did telesales, although she had a Law Degree- as she couldn't find a job. she was asked to call herself Claire Martin - as her name would 'put off customers'.  There is a lot of 'institutional' racism in France- I am very proud that the UK isn't like that. The more we help moderate Muslims to fully take part in our society- the more likely they are going to stand up against extremism. Teaching for more than 20 years in Leicester it would be difficult to have rose tinted glasses. if we alienate people by asking them to totaly give up their culture, we will definitely not win. I do believe that all religious schools should be abolished though, as they are so devisive.  In the UK we even have creationists schools starting now.

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Odile

The 'melting pot' seems to work, and most say that the UK system has failed - hence the bombings, attacks ...

You can't force a person to give up their culture, but a person chosing to leave their own country and culture must surely realise that they should try to integrate.   They might not manage it completely, but at least their children should.   Muslims seem to import spouses almost every generation setting back any hope of integration. Apparently there's money in these imports.

An interesting example of a Muslim unwilling to integrate is Lord Ahmed, who with so many privileges could not fully condemn the Muslim 7/7 attackers.( I expect you know about his accident, and how he should be prison - is one law for him , and ...?)

After all we English are trying to integrate when in France, and so we should if we choose to live there.

Regards

Tegwini

ps I don't approve of any LEA/state funded sectarian or religious schools- N Ireland certainly shows the folly of this!   Self-funded is of course a matter of choice.  I read of Muslim state/UK taxpayer funded schools breaking the rules and ignoring the Nat'l. Curr. for parrot learning of the Koran & listening to Imans who preach to impressionable kids their hatred of us.

 

 

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SOME  muslims.  The more integrated muslims we have, the more chances we have to prevent the others from extremism. We have the situation we have now - it can't be 'magiqued' away - so we must go forwards. Alienating and excluding a large minority will not help. The French model is certainly not the way forward.

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"when she returned, despite 8 years experience at Senior level, she took ages finding a job. Despite a big was of cash in her pocket, she found it alsmost impossible to find a flat, or a bank loan.  She went with her sister and friends to a Club - all got in apart from her and sister. And of course nobody to complain to! Her sister did telesales, although she had a Law Degree- as she couldn't find a job. she was asked to call herself Claire Martin - as her name would 'put off customers'"  quote Odile.

 

One of my friends here is French, a teacher with a good degree also can't get a job in France.  And another few hundred thousand extra in the UK,   here as they couldn't find  jobs in France either.

Tegwini

 

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that was a few years ago- when jobs in IT and teaching were a-plenty. If you have experience of town life in France, you must know how difficult it is for anybody from Maghred countries, even 2nd or 3rd generation to find jobs. It must be even much worse in the present climate on uncertainty.

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SOME  muslims.  The more integrated muslims we have, the more chances we have to prevent the others from extremism. We have the situation we have now - it can't be 'magiqued' away - so we must go forwards.  quote Odile

If only !

7/7 and subsequent attacks has 'concentrated' the minds of many. And not just London - even small cities like Exeter.

My brother and some friends were in London that day- fortunately OK.  

 'There but for the grace of God ...  '

Tegwini

ps forgot to mention that many EU citizens struggle to find jobs in France too, even with good French.

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How about Muslims:

 really trying to integrate; condemning attacks; learning English; marrying a local person;  trying to like us even if we are kaffirs  and ignoring the Koran on this and saying so .... etc

It should come from them primarily- they are the incomers.   Others coming here - no problem, as they all did,  and more of the above.

Did you read Powerdesal's posts  ?   - useful !

Tegwini

 

 

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I totally agree that 'integrated' muslims should be more vocal in their condemnations of the attacks. Absolutely. I don't know where you have lived Tegwini, but here in Leicester there is a huge number of Muslims who do get on with us and who do condemn extremism openly,  and certainly do not believe their duty is to kill us (please leave the kaffir word in SA). 

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