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Human rights and Islam


tegwini
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[quote user="powerdesal"]
 The majority (in fact all) my Muslim friends are not concerned at all about the Islamisation of Europe et al (at least to my face !) They just want to get on with their lives.

Unfortunately the agenda is being driven by extremists who seem to want the good bits of Western civilisation whilst campaigning for the introduction of their own 'perceived' good bits of Sharia. I dont think they have given sufficient thought to it but, realistically speaking, which bunch of extremists have ever thought through their wishes / actions etc.?
[/quote]

As I suggested earlier, Steve, the Gulf strip is a wholly different place to, say the Oman hinterland!

More crucially, surely, most Muslims in the UK don't come from the Middle East states: they come from Pakistan.

 

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"Western Christian history is not perfect, even recent religious history shows serious flaws but that in itself is a demonstration of how imperfect the human species is.

The fact is that we are aware of it, can debate it, can critiscise it. Try that with Islam, the Muslims dont take critiscism very well at all"    quote Powerdesal

 

 Spot on Steve- and just what I have been trying to say.

Tegwini

 

 

 


 

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[quote user="Scooby"]Sorry tegwini but IMHO sweeping generalisations based on race or religion are offensive / racist.

[/quote]

"Western Christian history is not perfect, even recent religious

history shows serious flaws but that in itself is a demonstration of

how imperfect the human species is.

The fact is that we are aware of it, can debate it, can

critiscise it. Try that with Islam, the Muslims dont take critiscism

very well at all"

Scooby, may I assume that you consider my statement above to be a 'sweeping generalisation based on religion', if so then you consider that I am racist (which I am certainly not).

Specifically:-

"Western Christian history is not perfect,''.........This is fact

" recent religious

history shows serious flaws ''..........fact.

" that in itself is a demonstration of

how imperfect the human species is''.........the imperfection of the human species is undisputed.

The fact is that we are aware of it, can debate it, can criticise it.........Fact.

Try that with Islam, the Muslims dont take critiscism

very well at all"......Even  you cannot deny this statement

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[quote user="Scooby"]Sorry tegwini but IMHO sweeping generalisations based on race or religion are offensive / racist.
[/quote]

The corollary to this comment is that those who have tried to air a growing social, political and associated problem in the UK are racists.

Perhaps you should try living in (e.g.) Bradford, Peterborough and similar places and with respect, take your head out of the Neo-Liberal sand in which it seems to be firmly planted and start studying precisely what is going on in the UK in terms of this growing problem.

The other corollary, of course is that those trying to espouse the existence of this problem are simply idiots, have no access to relevant information and research and are simply died-in-the-wool racists for the sake of so being.

Which personally, I find highly offensive: and a crass insult to my intellect, scholarship, research and deductive ability.

As I stated earlier on, using the term "Racist" in a perjorative sense and other perjoratives is a clever psychological method being used to deflect and confuse ill-informed opinion.

 

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I live in a city that has one of the highest populations of pakistanis in the UK and that had the largest and most violent riots a few years ago.   We also have the highest number of BNP councillors.  So I probably have more practical everyday experience of the issues than you.  Yes there are idiots, extremists and those who abuse the system.  There are also moderate, well balance and lovely people in our pakistani community.

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"Sorry tegwini but IMHO sweeping generalisations based on race or religion are offensive / racist".  quote Scooby

Well that's your opinion.   At least you can have  an opinion and speak openly  in the west.   I don't believe that race is the issue.    And your quoted comment is offensive too.  

 I can accept anyone who makes the effort to integrate, can fit in, and within a generation or so can be considered British.  Muslims refuse to do this, and would force their ideas on the rest of us in the UK.   The French don't accept this.

 I repeat that I fear for the future if Islam expands any more, which it is doing, and I certainly fear for the future of female Britons. 

 You're not by any chance, a sexist misogynist are you ?

Tegwini

 

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

Which personally, I find highly offensive: and a crass insult to my intellect, scholarship, research and deductive ability.

As I stated earlier on, using the term "Racist" in a perjorative sense and other perjoratives is a clever psychological method being used to deflect and confuse ill-informed opinion.

 

[/quote]

 

First question then ,using your intellect and  research please point me in the direction of a proper news report from a proper newspaper or news channel reporting the alleged cancelling of the Film in the House of Lords.

I have used my intellect, research and deductive ability to establish that the only reports of this are in BLOGS , forums or the BNP website.which I find rather strange .If it were true I wouls have thought the British press would have had something to say, but there is a deathly silence.

 

 

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[quote user="Scooby"]I live in a city that has one of the highest populations of pakistanis in the UK and that had the largest and most violent riots a few years ago.   We also have the highest number of BNP councillors.  So I probably have more practical everyday experience of the issues than you.  Yes there are idiots, extremists and those who abuse the system.  There are also moderate, well balance and lovely people in our pakistani community.

[/quote]

I would suggest that ''the highest number of BNP councillors.'' is an indication of the strength of feeling of the indigenous population, who, because of the 'racist' tag have been denied the right of open discussion regarding their perceptions of the community issues. Unless of course you believe that anyone and everyone who votes BNP are automatically racist. The term should of course be 'religionist' as Islam is not a race, and hence Muslim is not a race either.

I grew up in a similar place in the North of England and the presence of (predominantly) Pakistani immigrants was not a problem until the numbers reached ''tipping'' point and then the troubles started.

British people are, on the whole, one of the most tolerant peoples in the World but they now feel threatened by sheer numbers of people with an alien culture. When the moderate, well balanced and lovely immigrants remain silent and allow / condone / accept the firebrand rhetoric of their (self appointed) spokesmen then the flames of 'religionism' are well and truly fanned.

This leads to the  rise of the BNP because the indigenous population can see no alternative.

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="Gluestick"]

Which personally, I find highly offensive: and a crass insult to my intellect, scholarship, research and deductive ability.

As I stated earlier on, using the term "Racist" in a perjorative sense and other perjoratives is a clever psychological method being used to deflect and confuse ill-informed opinion.

[/quote]

First question then ,using your intellect and  research please point me in the direction of a proper news report from a proper newspaper or news channel reporting the alleged cancelling of the Film in the House of Lords.

I have used my intellect, research and deductive ability to establish that the only reports of this are in BLOGS , forums or the BNP website.which I find rather strange .If it were true I wouls have thought the British press would have had something to say, but there is a deathly silence.

[/quote]

Your erudition will tell you, surely, that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?

I thoroughly object to being labelled "Racist", only since I have the courage to express the collective concern of those Europeans rightly worried about idiot politicians destroying their culture, society, legal process and the right to express those concerns, free from social persecution and potential criminal prosecution.

The British Press: yeah right!

Just in case you hadn't noticed, this is now highly biased and predjudiced: and much news uncovered in mainstream media is increasingly available from various news agregators as well as blogs.

The corollary to your statement, BTW, is that if a story isn't covered in mainstream media, then it hasn't happened.

If I had the time, which I don't, or concern, I could easily point you at any number of significant news sources and items, not mentioned in mainstream newspapers.

 

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Another example of our political masters pandering to 'minorities'  ?

 To kill someone when you are using your mobile, it's usual to get a prison sentence. This happened Dec 2007. 

It would be interesting to hear what would happen with a similar accident, and  say an English man or women causing it - what would be their fate in one of the middle eastern countries - say KSA, Oman,  UAR or even in Africa -  Egypt, Sudan, etc  ?

Tegwini

 

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While you lot are arguing about the Muslim hordes at your doors - the Jehovas Witnesses appeared en masse in our small congregation of peasants huts.

They dispersed and made a forked  attack they slinked from door to door in a military stance. Clutching the Watchtower as protection, they hammered on doors demanding to know if you believed in god, not prepared to take NO for an answer.

I yelled to the 87 year old farmer and his wife to take cover - they pulled their zimmer frames inside and locked the door.

Children - well the only one - cowered by the TV he was watching as they approached. I decided attack was the best form of defence and having had a very wet wood walk and being well camofluaged with mud I inched towards them.

It was a scary sight they were somberley dressed in black - human darth veyders (I don't know how to spell it I have never seen a Star Wars film)  they needed cult members.  I popped out of the ditch and they recoiled - I flexed my beer belly and said "Good Afternoon" this was all that was needed they fled.

We should be safe for a month or so, my fellow peasants heaped me with home made aperatifs and we can all sleep safe tonight... maybe...

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

I thoroughly object to being labelled "Racist", only since I have the courage to express the collective concern of those Europeans rightly worried about idiot politicians destroying their culture, society, legal process and the right to express those concerns, free from social persecution and potential criminal prosecution.

[/quote]

How arrogant!

What about the white ghettos - habited by pushers, junkies, pimps and prostitutes - and the Friday and Saturday nights with louts pi ssed out of their heads and the loutish girls flashing their boobs and backsides at any passing bloke.  Funnily I don't recall seeing many Pakistanis in this group. 

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[quote user="tegwini"]

"Sorry tegwini but IMHO sweeping generalisations based on race or religion are offensive / racist".  quote Scooby

Well that's your opinion.   At least you can have  an opinion and speak openly  in the west.   I don't believe that race is the issue.    And your quoted comment is offensive too.  

 [/quote]

Glad you found it offensive - obviously hit home!

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I live in Leicester - where I have been a teacher in several state schools. I can tel you that the vast majority of Muslims, Indus and Sikhs are very well integrated ad a pleasure to teach, very motivated and with very supportive parents. Unlike a large number of indigenous children and parents- I am sorry to say.

As said before there are as many ways of being Christian as there are ways of being Muslim - you can't generalise. By tarring all with the same brush we are not helping at all and just pushing people into dangerous corners.

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[quote user="odile"]I live in Leicester - where I have been a teacher in several state schools. I can tel you that the vast majority of Muslims, Indus and Sikhs are very well integrated ad a pleasure to teach, very motivated and with very supportive parents. Unlike a large number of indigenous children and parents- I am sorry to say.

As said before there are as many ways of being Christian as there are ways of being Muslim - you can't generalise. By tarring all with the same brush we are not helping at all and just pushing people into dangerous corners.

[/quote]

Exactly Odile.  My son's best friend is pakistani, achieved 13 A*'s, was head boy and is a delightful and polite individual.  His father was a consultant neurosurgeon - now a GP (because of an illness that affected his motor control).  Again a lovely person.  My daughter's close friend from school, also Pakistani, achieved similar results and is training to be a doctor.  The guy I have working for me atm (chartered accountant / chartered tax accountant - working as a temp) is an incredibly hard worker, well qualified and has an extremely successful business.  He is lovely - pleasant, well mannered and a great team worker.   

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[quote user="Scooby"][quote user="tegwini"]

"Sorry tegwini but IMHO sweeping generalisations based on race or religion are offensive / racist".  quote Scooby

Well that's your opinion.   At least you can have  an opinion and speak openly  in the west.   I don't believe that race is the issue.    And your quoted comment is offensive too.  

 [/quote]

Glad you found it offensive - obviously hit home!

[/quote]

Scooby,

You are obviously pleased to be thought to be offensive, however, I have posted a number of comments which were, I think, reasoned, non-insulting and logical. You have not commented on those. Perhaps you may like to.

I will then respond when I come home from work in the multi-cultural Islamic society in which I am employed.

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"My daughter's close friend from school, also Pakistani, achieved similar results and is training to be a doctor" quote Odile. 

  

 Well the Glascow airport attack was done by a couple of Muslims, one a UK trained doctor! 

And a near neighbour teaches in a school in Southampton, admittedly a rough one, with at least half the pupils being from the Indian sub-continent.  Behaviour is apparently awful, and GSCE results at the bottom of the league in the area and county. 

Obviously we can't really generalise, but Pakistanis are also near the top of the league as benefit claimants/unemployed or  on income support. 

Before someone claims that poverty breeds terrorists note that both the 7/7 bombings and the Glascow attack were planned and carried out by mainly UK Muslim citizens from middle class backgrounds with good jobs.

Sadly they are taught to dislike us, even hate us, and their religion allows this, and even allows the killing of the non-believer- in the 21st century. 

Christianity has many flaws,  but would certainly never preach such, and in fact is one of the first to help when an Islamic country has a disaster - natural or otherwise. 

Tegwini

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I must be missing something,  but it really puzzles me in this whole debate concerning Human Rights and Islam.

Why is it that there are no suicide bombers in western societies with Christian backgrounds going to Moslem Countries and causing mayhem and devastation as Moslems are doing in the west.

Oh I know, we have extreme right wing factions living within western societies who are capable and  cause mayhem and devastation, however by and large western societies are tolerant and have a fair legal system with equal rights for all.

 

Moslems however continue to want to live within western societies but want to bring their ways with them.

 I say  , when in Rome do as the Romans do. 

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"What about the white ghettos - habited by pushers, junkies, pimps and prostitutes - and the Friday and Saturday nights with louts   pi ssed out of their heads and the loutish girls flashing their boobs and backsides at any passing bloke.  Funnily I don't recall seeing many Pakistanis in this group".  quote Scooby

 

Well, most of us disagree with this behaviour !

What do you suggest ?   Stoning ?  lashing ?  beheading ?   Fortunately our societies or governments  in  the west would never do this, and prefer to rule without punishments  such as those.  And young people like this do grow out of it - usually.

Tegwini

ps stoning - a horrible death- very sad report.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-455400/The-girl-stoned-death-falling-love.html

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