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Sums it up nicely really; this prat is not needed .....


woolybanana
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Surely, two facets are being conflated herein?

OK: critique the Catholic Church on the matter of child abuse: however, that issue has zero bearing on whether the UK, as a state, recognises ambassadorial, diplomatic officers and heads of state who are part of the Congress of Vienna.

If the UK started sundering diplomatic relations on grounds of various breaches of human rights, then as Tegwini points out, China is right in the frame: as are India, Pakistan, most of Africa; most of South America: keep on going. Saudi Arabia, as a feudal state is not noted for its tolerance of adverse human behaviour: however, it remains a critically important trading partner.

Worse, if Britain started mocking other state's leaders on the simple grounds of malfeasance, incompetence, or some other facet of distopian reality which was perceived as abhorrent, then as a nation, Britain would soon become rather lonely. Worse, perhaps, it would be unable to function, cut off from the globalised economy.

And no longer a party to myriad treaties, conventions and diplomatic accords.

Sadly, the very nature of those agreements is that a state cannot Mix 'N Match.

Realistically, whilst France presents with rapidly diminishing church attendance and is now a secular state, the same cannot be said for Spain and Italy, for example.

One of the first lessons I learned in office politics and self-preservation was never, but never commit to writing anything which might be turned against yourself: particularly so with email and text: so easy to fire off in a fit of pique: so impossible to retract.

Now, the second critical lesson I learned was, when I came up with a demon idea, always commit it to writing: and ensure the distribution list was as wide as possible in order to earn correct accreditation!

And keep dated copies!

[:)]

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[quote user="Clarkkent"]

I hear on the radio that some senior Vatican officials are very angry about this memo. They seem to be obsessed with their dignity and that of their church. In doing so they appear pompous and out of touch with the modern world. A load of geriatric bachelors in skirts are not particularly well placed to make effective judgments about life in the 21st century. Perhaps this affair, together with the fall-out from hebephilia among priests, may result in an organisation which is better able to exist in the modern world.

[/quote]

Interesting perspective..............

When you have some spare time, perhaps you might care to research the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) founded by St. Ignatious Loyola.

And how their global intel network feeds into most NATO systems: and how and why they are often consulted by leading senior serving politicians: and also often asked to broker meetings between states in dispute.

And their academic standards and achievements.

 

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[quote user="tegwini"][quote user="Quillan"]

I personally don't care who he is I just don't think a person who has actively tried to cover up illegal acts should have £20M worth of UK tax payers money spent on him.[/quote]


Well unlike most on this forum  we are all paying UK tax, and I do not object to the security costs for the Pope.  In   the scheme of things £20m is not that much these days.

And he has apologised for the actions of others.  The RC church is huge (billions) and somewhere, sometimes you will have someone who is evil.

But, we have much evil in the world - the Chinese leadership is never criticised like this and they execute thousands pa - some perhaps innocent, apart from the Tibet issue.   Many Muslim countries have evil laws - beheadings, stonings etc - the evil treatment of women etc ... 

I am unaware of insults towards the leadership of huge and powerful countries, who can get away with anything - or   Muslim  leaders in  countries such as Saudi Arabia - because we sell weapons to them, and need their oil ?  And they also wear dresses as a poster mentioned above.

Insults to the Pope are a cheap shot- from weaklings insulting a much loved and respected man. The UK (hardly GBrit.) government would be creeping around if a 'minority' faith had been insulted, and we would have riots and violence on the streets , as in the past,  from even UK born Muslims.


Tegwini


[/quote]

 Like you Tegwini I am a UK tax payer and frankly I personally don't think he should be coming at all. 

 Its not just one or two who are guilty of what the rest of us perceive as 'evil'

There are stories in many countries, appologising is one thing, bringing these people to justice and being seen to do so is another. For how many years has the faintest hint of scandal meant being recalled to Rome, out of harms way, been the norm ?

If the Pope doesn't have the humanity or sense of humour to see this for the stupidity it was perhaps he is in the wrong job, hey, he could always practice what he preaches, forgiveness !

 

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I too pay tax in UK. I don't think nearly enough has been done by the Vatican by way of apologies, reparation etc. However, visits by the Pope, heads of other countries happen whethet I agree with them or not, including some regimes I'm appalled by. Realistically, it's what happens; our country can't stay neutral whenever we hate what other countries do. We'd be totally on our own.

I can't understand how comments made by these silly young men came to be committed to paper/computer! Many of us did/said silly things we thought were clever and amusing when we were young, but had sufficient sense not to have them recorded. Thank goodness there wasn't Twitter, Facebook back then! I'm angry that we pay high salaries to such silly people, and that they aren't sufficiently supervised. I've been told that when brainstorming every single suggestion must be recorded; but surely the chair of that meeting should have had the sense to stop that happening in that particular case!

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

Surely, two facets are being conflated herein?

OK: critique the Catholic Church on the matter of child abuse: however, that issue has zero bearing on whether the UK, as a state, recognises ambassadorial, diplomatic officers and heads of state who are part of the Congress of Vienna.

If the UK started sundering diplomatic relations on grounds of various breaches of human rights, then as Tegwini points out, China is right in the frame: as are India, Pakistan, most of Africa; most of South America: keep on going. Saudi Arabia, as a feudal state is not noted for its tolerance of adverse human behaviour: however, it remains a critically important trading partner.

Worse, if Britain started mocking other state's leaders on the simple grounds of malfeasance, incompetence, or some other facet of distopian reality which was perceived as abhorrent, then as a nation, Britain would soon become rather lonely. Worse, perhaps, it would be unable to function, cut off from the globalised economy.

And no longer a party to myriad treaties, conventions and diplomatic accords.

Sadly, the very nature of those agreements is that a state cannot Mix 'N Match.

Realistically, whilst France presents with rapidly diminishing church attendance and is now a secular state, the same cannot be said for Spain and Italy, for example.

One of the first lessons I learned in office politics and self-preservation was never, but never commit to writing anything which might be turned against yourself: particularly so with email and text: so easy to fire off in a fit of pique: so impossible to retract.

Now, the second critical lesson I learned was, when I came up with a demon idea, always commit it to writing: and ensure the distribution list was as wide as possible in order to earn correct accreditation!

And keep dated copies!

[:)]

[/quote]

I think you are kind of missing the point, the government hasn't been disrespectful to the RC Church, two individuals in its employ have. I haven't seen any official statement backing these suggestions?  What are we going to say 'you're fired' ? When the complainant tolerates so much worse from their own staff ?

What is happening is that people are not as horrified as they might of been, because of the reputation of the Church perhaps coupled with the fact that many will know of some Church misdeed within their own communities or areas, that tends to bring it to prominence rather than something happening on the other side of the world. That's just human nature I'm afraid.

 

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[quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="tegwini"][quote user="Quillan"]

I personally don't care who he is I just don't think a person who has actively tried to cover up illegal acts should have £20M worth of UK tax payers money spent on him.[/quote]

Well unlike most on this forum  we are all paying UK tax, and I do not object to the security costs for the Pope.  In   the scheme of things £20m is not that much these days.

And he has apologised for the actions of others.  The RC church is huge (billions) and somewhere, sometimes you will have someone who is evil.

But, we have much evil in the world - the Chinese leadership is never criticised like this and they execute thousands pa - some perhaps innocent, apart from the Tibet issue.   Many Muslim countries have evil laws - beheadings, stonings etc - the evil treatment of women etc ... 

I am unaware of insults towards the leadership of huge and powerful countries, who can get away with anything - or   Muslim  leaders in  countries such as Saudi Arabia - because we sell weapons to them, and need their oil ?  And they also wear dresses as a poster mentioned above.

Insults to the Pope are a cheap shot- from weaklings insulting a much loved and respected man. The UK (hardly GBrit.) government would be creeping around if a 'minority' faith had been insulted, and we would have riots and violence on the streets , as in the past,  from even UK born Muslims.

Tegwini

[/quote]

 Like you Tegwini I am a UK tax payer and frankly I personally don't think he should be coming at all. 

 Its not just one or two who are guilty of what the rest of us perceive as 'evil'

There are stories in many countries, appologising is one thing, bringing these people to justice and being seen to do so is another. For how many years has the faintest hint of scandal meant being recalled to Rome, out of harms way, been the norm ?

If the Pope doesn't have the humanity or sense of humour to see this for the stupidity it was perhaps he is in the wrong job, hey, he could always practice what he preaches, forgiveness !

[/quote]

Well I am confident that abuses will happen a lot less, and the Pope is

apologetic and has condemned the abusers,  and we assume will make changes.

I believe he's sincere in this.  

Clearly the UK government wants

this visit, and so do millions of catholics from the UK - and beyond, 

who will also come to see him.

Plenty changes needed elsewhere

in countries that we welcome evil leaders on state visits, but do

nothing about because our government is full of lying, hypocritical,

creeps!

Tegwini 

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[quote user="tegwini"]
Well I am confident that abuses will happen a lot less, and the Pope is apologetic and has condemned the abusers,  and we assume will make changes. I believe he's sincere in this.  
Clearly the UK government wants this visit, and so do millions of catholics from the UK - and beyond,  who will also come to see him.

Plenty changes needed elsewhere in countries that we welcome evil leaders on state visits, but do nothing about because our government is full of lying, hypocritical, creeps!

Tegwini 
[/quote]

 

I doubt it will make the slightest bit of difference, it has taken the RC church 2000 years to come up with a grudging apology ,how many millions of children have been abused during this time, and it continues.

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[quote user="Gluestick"][quote user="Clarkkent"]

I hear on the radio that some senior Vatican officials are very angry about this memo. They seem to be obsessed with their dignity and that of their church. In doing so they appear pompous and out of touch with the modern world. A load of geriatric bachelors in skirts are not particularly well placed to make effective judgments about life in the 21st century. Perhaps this affair, together with the fall-out from hebephilia among priests, may result in an organisation which is better able to exist in the modern world.

[/quote]

Interesting perspective..............

When you have some spare time, perhaps you might care to research the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) founded by St. Ignatious Loyola.

And how their global intel network feeds into most NATO systems: and how and why they are often consulted by leading senior serving politicians: and also often asked to broker meetings between states in dispute.

And their academic standards and achievements.

[/quote]

Having been brought up as a catholic, I am well aware of the Society of Jesus. In fact, novitiates from a nearby Jesuit seminary used to visit my primary school one afternoon each week and take part in our religious education. I am well aware, too, of the contributions by the Society to our knowledge of science and the physical world and of their outstanding academic record. However, I am also well aware of the following statement made by Loyola:

"That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which appears to our eyes to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be black."

My earlier post referred not to the Society of Jesus, but to the Vatican - more specifically the Roman Curia. This is the very conservative administrative apparatus which governs the Roman Catholic Church and which is concerned with maintaining the church's power and authority - as exemplified by Loyola's statement.

 

EDIT

In general, I am sympathetic with the views of Russethouse and Tegwini here. I am also of the opinion that the actions of a very small number of priests are responsible for the current venting of outrage, and that there are plenty of other hebephiles around whose activities do not receive equivalent publicity.

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

I think you are kind of missing the point, the government hasn't been disrespectful to the RC Church, two individuals in its employ have. I haven't seen any official statement backing these suggestions?  What are we going to say 'you're fired' ? When the complainant tolerates so much worse from their own staff ?

What is happening is that people are not as horrified as they might of been, because of the reputation of the Church perhaps coupled with the fact that many will know of some Church misdeed within their own communities or areas, that tends to bring it to prominence rather than something happening on the other side of the world. That's just human nature I'm afraid.

 

[/quote]

Sorry, RH, as my American friends might say "That one doesn't play in Peoria".

The FCO is supposedly, the home of the bright and the good and the epicentre of diplomatic excellence and decorum.

FCO also enjoys oversight of SIS.

And established civil servants are indeed representatives of the United Kingdom Government and thereby, vicariously, HM The Queen.

Forget the RC church: and focus on STATE.

Had the suggestion emerged from say, Amnesty International, different animal.

Your proposition is an interesting one: however, it flies in the face of established law on vicarious liability and the contractual relationship between the employer and their servants.

It would be rather like an employer, whose building company you had contracted with to fix your roof, suggesting that the reason your chimney collapsed was not the company's fault or obligation: it was the duff workman. And we've since moved him on to other duties.

 

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

It would be rather like an employer, whose building company you had contracted with to fix your roof, suggesting that the reason your chimney collapsed was not the company's fault or obligation: it was the duff workman. And we've since moved him on to other duties.

[/quote]

Are you engaging in irony? Isn't this just what the Roman Catholic Church is accused of doing?

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[quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="Gluestick"]

It would be rather like an employer, whose building company you had contracted with to fix your roof, suggesting that the reason your chimney collapsed was not the company's fault or obligation: it was the duff workman. And we've since moved him on to other duties.

[/quote]

Are you engaging in irony? Isn't this just what the Roman Catholic Church is accused of doing?

[/quote]

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the core debate.

Whilst the actions of a state, person or group may well be anathema, international diplomacy demands such is put aside in the interests of international concord.

If not, then Churchill and Roosevelt would never have travelled to Yalta, Tehran, et al, simply because Joseph Stalin was a monster and responsible for killing umpteen millions of his own people, establishing the Gulag system and ec.

 

This thread is now circumlocuting

 

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 I think you are debating alone there Gluey. These silly ideas were never part of a serious proposal, what are you going to do, ask people to come to a brain storming session and tell them that they can't voice their thoughts unless they are PC ? Its throwing slightly mad off the wall ideas around that sometimes leads to progress and good ideas.

My feeling is that the the offenders  should be seriously reprimanded and perhaps given a first warning officially if that is appropriate. The Government should distance itself and then leave at that. All this huffing and puffing by Vatican officials is so much hot air -

The civil servants in question were undoubtably silly and probably having a joke, the suggestions were never meant for public consumption and unless you want to stop people thinking, this type of thing will always happen. What agenda did the person who sent the remarks to papers have ? Thats is more interesting to me ? Its 'playground politics'

CK I was going to say the same.

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So, if it was Nick Griffin and BNP executives holding a "Brain Storming" session and freely throwing interesting ideas around about gays, immigrants, ethnics etc (All in fun, naturally), and a mole recorded the conversation, then a majority on this forum would laugh, say lightly,something such as "Boys will be boys! That's just Nick and his boys having fun!"

I think not.

Ergo to find against one group one finds obnoxious: and also try and maintain poking fun at another much larger group Worldwide, who hold their faith dear is simply disingenuous.

Now I didn't create this insane spavined PC world I'm compelled to live in: politicians and their faithful servants bureaucrats did: and therefore they, above all, ought to know better.

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[quote user="Russethouse"] I suspect even Nick Griffin would have the wit not to write such ideas down, actually I'd think that they were being stupid, which is just what I think about this lot.[/quote]

Well Civil Service entrance examinations are supposed to be difficult to pass.  So what caused this immature and foolish activity ?  Was it an arrogant upper-class twit, or in our more democratic times a dim 'grad' from an ex-poly ?

Perhaps, as with many public exams,  these exams have also been downgraded ?

Tegwini

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[quote user="tegwini"][quote user="Russethouse"] I suspect even Nick Griffin would have the wit not to write such ideas down, actually I'd think that they were being stupid, which is just what I think about this lot.[/quote]
[:)]
Well Civil Service entrance examinations are supposed to be difficult to pass.  So what caused this immature and foolish activity ?  Was it an arrogant upper-class twit, or in our more democratic times a dim 'grad' from an ex-poly ?

Perhaps, as with many public exams,  these exams have also been downgraded ?

Tegwini
[/quote]

Even very intelligent people have a sense of humour, and oddly some very bright people lack common sense: i.e putting cold water on the hot headlights of the Jensen Interceptor and wondering why the glass broke, or putting plastic plates in the oven or in one case on the gas ring ! (All of which I have sen very intelligent men do)

Or letting memo's from brain storming sessions get into the public domain

 

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[quote user="woolybanana"]Perhaps it is a young man who dared to say what he thinks, and what most of the country does too.[/quote]

Most ???

I don't think so !!!  perhaps in parts of (Orange) Belfast, but NOT most of the country.

Tegwini

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[quote user="woolybanana"]Perhaps it is a young man who dared to say what he thinks, and what most of the country does too.[/quote]

What a silly comment: the last estimate suggests that there are circa 4.9 million Catholics in England and Wales.

"Figures for 2005 show that there are 4.2 million Catholics in England and Wales, under one fifth the 25 million baptised Anglicans and double the number of Muslims."

Source:

I fear you have a very much distorted perspective of the typical view espoused by most Brits.

Just because a few Aetheist lefty Anarchists prefer to promote their strange desires for society: it does not make it so.

Clearly, the Catholic Church is set to become the dominant Christian church in most of Western and much of Eastern Europe.

 

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And with increasing and ongoing empathy between the Anglican Commune and the Holy See, I would suggest that a majority of the Christians in UK, whether Anglican, Catholic or non-conformist, would find the comments made by the FCO employee objectionable.

Thus the comment "Perhaps it is a young man who dared to say what he thinks, and what most of the country does too." is untenable.

 

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