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Sums it up nicely really; this prat is not needed .....


woolybanana
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I am offended by the pope and by the 'Holy Catholic Church' and I would prefer that the UK government withdrew any invitations to the ex n a z i youth.

I would prefer that any apologies and shame are reserved for the victims of this so called religious order.
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This pope offends me, as does his religion, which has caused untold damage even within my own family.  However, I still believe that it's up to individuals to chose whether they believe in a mythical being or beings and how they worship him/her/them/it.  I just don't think anybody should have to pay towards promoting it if they don't wish to.  Fine, if he's a head of state then he should be afforded the same courtesies as any other, but certainly not more and equally he should be held to account, as are other heads of state, if he condones or helps to cover up,crimes carried out within his own jurisdiciton and under his leadership. 

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

  Fine, if he's a head of state then he should be afforded the same courtesies as any other, but certainly not more and equally he should be held to account, as are other heads of state, if he condones or helps to cover up,crimes carried out within his own jurisdiciton and under his leadership

[/quote]

Oh dear, JE!

So then let's see.......

So that's:

Geo W Bush: War Crimes:

Tony Blair: War crimes:

(Check the Nuremberg principles: and BTW, warrants for both heads of state have been taken out, and others in their governments of the time:):

Silvio Berlesconi: Collusion: Bribery: Corruption - David Mills etc, Tessa Jowell's wife: (Bear in mind he arranged for Italian law and constitution to be changed to prevent Italian Heads of State from being prosecuted; however EU law is paramount, so Silvio's ploy won't wash!):

The list is really endless.

 

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The best of the new intake of graduates entering the civil service used to be creamed off for service in the foreign office.

Either that is no longer the case, or the other departments must be even more brainless.

Most of the other forum users might find that so-called memo justified, but causing offence to a large number of people for the sake of schoolboy giggles sounds pretty daft to me. The fact that the current Pope is unpopular, mainly due to the actions of some priests over a very long period, is no excuse for stupid behaviour.

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I may have misunderstood, but wasn't this the result of a brain-storming exercise?  And with one of these, the purpose is to come up with ideas very quickly (like a machine gun) regardless of how stupid they might sound.  I had assumed that the bits quoted had simply been some of the stupid ones and were not meant to be taken seriously.

Presumably there were some good ideas which will be revealed in due course.

Perhaps these will be leaked in good time [:)]

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Will, it was an internal memo and a joke, but some sh*te decided to leak it; that is where the problem lies. However, it is no more offensive than a Steve Bell cartoon, and its underlying message may reflect the true feelings of a heck of a lot of people who would have preferred this visit not to have taken place but who would not have been consulted. And that applies as much to Catholics as to the non-Catholic majority in the UK.
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Gluey , it's fine by me if a boss is held responsible for his/her staff's actions.  This is what happened to me when I managed a large department - if my staff messed up it was I who took responsibility at board level.  The pope I guess will ultimately have to answer to his god for the mistakes of his priests who are under his guidance and who believe their authority comes from their god via their pope.  Oh, but of course he'll be able to sit in a little box and confess and save himself from eternal damnation.  The children abused by his staff won't be so lucky - they have to live in the real world.

Likewise the boss of the two guys who leaked this silly (but very funny) list should be taken to account just as were his/her staff, for not making clear that they either shouldn't have done it or shouldn't have published it in a way that could be traced back to their service.  They're all certainly guilty of stupidity.

 

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

Quote"

The Holy See is represented at international governmental organizations including the United Nations (UN) headquarters in New York, U.S.A.; UN Offices and Specialized Institutions, Geneva, Switzerland; International Atomic Energy Agency, Vienna, Austria; Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe (OCSE), Vienna; Council of Europe, Strasbourg, France; Organization of American States (OAS), Washington, D.C., U.S.A. It also has diplomatic relations with the European Community. A lay person represents the Holy See as delegate to the International Institute for the Unification of Private Law."

 No doubt, some of you it would appear would simply love to dismantle international treaties dating back to 1815 onwards..... Such as the original Congress of Vienna...............................

[/quote]

Even so the 'Vatican State' is not recognised officially by the United Nations. The UN and other institutes do accept delegates from the 'Holy See', to quote from the Catholics for Choice website "Concerned that the church has flown in under UN radar by calling itself the Holy See, we have called on the Secretary-General to review the church's current status as a Non-member State Permanent Observer. We believe that the Holy See, the government of the Roman Catholic church, should participate in the UN in the same way as the world's other religions do—as a non-governmental organization." The position of 'Non-member State Permanent Observer' was granted to the 'Holy See' in 2004 and whilst he can sponsor resolutions he has no voting powers because the Vatican State is not a member. The 'Holy See' was high criticised by the UN in March (for the second time, the first was in Sept 2009) about child abuse, to see the content of the statement you can use the link below.

http://www.iheu.org/vatican-condemned-un-child-abuse

 

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[quote user="cooperlola"]

Gluey , it's fine by me if a boss is held responsible for his/her staff's actions.  This is what happened to me when I managed a large department - if my staff messed up it was I who took responsibility at board level.  The pope I guess will ultimately have to answer to his god for the mistakes of his priests who are under his guidance and who believe their authority comes from their god via their pope.  Oh, but of course he'll be able to sit in a little box and confess and save himself from eternal damnation.  The children abused by his staff won't be so lucky - they have to live in the real world.

Likewise the boss of the two guys who leaked this silly (but very funny) list should be taken to account just as were his/her staff, for not making clear that they either shouldn't have done it or shouldn't have published it in a way that could be traced back to their service.  They're all certainly guilty of stupidity.

[/quote]

Spot on Coops which is why, in my opinion the Pope must and should take full responsibility for what has happened and should basically grovel to those who have been abused. I always had a sign on my desk to remind me of my responsibility, it simply said "The buck stops here". It was my company, I owned it and my staff worked for me therefore I am (or was) ultimately responsible.

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[quote user="woolybanana"]Will, it was an internal memo and a joke, but some sh*te decided to leak it; that is where the problem lies.[/quote]

And of course, the motives of the Telegraph shouldn't be ignored. There are a lot of Roman Catholic voters in Britain, if they could be manipulated to think negatively about the Labour government .....

I hear on the radio that some senior Vatican officials are very angry about this memo. They seem to be obsessed with their dignity and that of their church. In doing so they appear pompous and out of touch with the modern world. A load of geriatric bachelors in skirts are not particularly well placed to make effective judgments about life in the 21st century. Perhaps this affair, together with the fall-out from hebephilia among priests, may result in an organisation which is better able to exist in the modern world.

Having said that, I think that American fundamental evangelicals pose a greater danger to the world, and as is shown in www.silentlambs.org child abuse is not restricted to the RC church - its incidence among adherents of the Watchtower is - size for size - greater.

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[quote user="Clarkkent"]

Having said that, I think that American fundamental evangelicals pose a greater danger to the world, and as is shown in www.silentlambs.org child abuse is not restricted to the RC church - its incidence among adherents of the Watchtower is - size for size - greater.

[/quote]True, it's horrifying what is done in the name of this god person by some religious movements.  However, taxpayers (of whom I am no longer one so happily it's not affecting me directly any more) are not being asked to foot the bill for their leaders' overblown visits to their country.  I hope at least that those who believe the children affected should feel the support and comfort of the majority of people for their plight, turn out in force and demonstrate against the abuses perpertrated by this man's staff and show him and his victims how they feel, in a tangible way.
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It is an official visit Coops, invitation by the Government, not a bring a bottle and the dessert job so I fancy the taxpayer will be paying. But, like prisoners taken to ancient Rome, I think it is significant that he will be shown off in a cage, albeit of glass, and hauled round the streets by horsepower; Whether the populace is allowed to chuck tomatoes or not depends on the effectiveness of the legionnaires in stopping them. Perhaps if the crowd turned their backs and dropped their trousers..........
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[quote user="woolybanana"]. Perhaps if the crowd turned their backs and dropped their trousers..........[/quote]Would they be safe?

I meant that the UK taxpayer is not expected to pay for the visits of American christian fundamentalist leaders, as it is for the pope.  My syntax got in a muddle!

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[quote user="Etoile"]Certain people of little intelligence on this forum are rather missing the point here. The fact is that senior civil servants have offended a church leader who has been invited by our government to visit this country. As expected the government has done little about it - the offending person simply being relocated to another job. It has nothing to do with ones religious views or lack of them. The are as many non-believers appalled by this as there are christians. If the slur had been made against a leader from any other faith our politicians would now be lining up to grovel and apologise.[/quote]

 I second this too.

And Gluestick was correct that these 'civil' servants are clearly underemployed and unnecessary-  and extremely rude!

Would these prattish uncivil servants have had the courage to insult, for example, a Muslim leader ??

Probably not.

Tegwini

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He was a junior civil servant having a laugh but some malicious senior made sure the memo was passed to the public domain. Perhaps someone who really does not want the visit to go ahead. And yes, perhaps the civil servant might well have insulted a Muslim leader, we do not know, nor should we.

 

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 I think the point that is being made by those people of 'little intelligence' is that if the RC Church wants people to behave with respect toward it has to earn or regain that respect.

 Its current behavior, its policies and its failure to deal with those who have been guilty of damaging the young they were in charge of either with violence or sexually, has deeply tarnished their standing in society. In fact  my own feeling is that as a Church its reputation is probably at the lowest for many years.

Also I sincerely doubt that these civil servants were very senior, it was a tasteless joke published by someone with an agenda, if the powers that be in Rome have time to get worked up against it then they should  take a good look at themselves.

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I agree with everything you have said, RH.  But, I admit to humour failure with these sorts of stupid, thoughtless behaviour from people whose training and occupation should have put some sense into their numbskulls.

No patience at all as these are privileged, highly-paid, if not highly-qualified people who really should have known better.

I guess I'm becoming a grumpy old woman but, in my day (to coin a phrase), such behaviour would never have been allowed and would certainly have been severely clamped down on.

I'm not here defending the RC Church because their behaviour collectively has been indefensible but  I am highlighting the prattishness of the civil servants.

They should have contracts that would make them self-employed and then let's see if they can insult their clients and still earn a living. 

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[quote user="Quillan"]

I personally don't care who he is I just don't think a person who has actively tried to cover up illegal acts should have £20M worth of UK tax payers money spent on him.[/quote]

Well unlike most on this forum  we are all paying UK tax, and I do not object to the security costs for the Pope.  In   the scheme of things £20m is not that much these days.

And he has apologised for the actions of others.  The RC church is huge (billions) and somewhere, sometimes you will have someone who is evil.

But, we have much evil in the world - the Chinese leadership is never criticised like this and they execute thousands pa - some perhaps innocent, apart from the Tibet issue.   Many Muslim countries have evil laws - beheadings, stonings etc - the evil treatment of women etc ... 

I am unaware of insults towards the leadership of huge and powerful countries, who can get away with anything - or   Muslim  leaders in  countries such as Saudi Arabia - because we sell weapons to them, and need their oil ?  And they also wear dresses as a poster mentioned above.

Insults to the Pope are a cheap shot- from weaklings insulting a much loved and respected man. The UK (hardly GBrit.) government would be creeping around if a 'minority' faith had been insulted, and we would have riots and violence on the streets , as in the past,  from even UK born Muslims.

Tegwini

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