Students revolting again - France? No UK

[just john]

 independent. /student-protest-sparks-tory-hq-evacuation

[Tony F Dordogne]

Whilst I don't agree with or condone the violence, it's nice to see that at least ONE sector of the UK population that are going to be effected by HMG are actually doing something visual and obvious to protest what is happening, shame that some of the other people involved aren't so vocal.

Obviously they've been reading the threads on here and have decided that what Frenchie (and some others) said was right!

Edit: And it looks as though they're going to try to hang the Met out to dry on this, must have SOMEBODY to BLAME, what is that all about, it seems to be a Uk media obsession.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Whilst I don't agree with or condone the violence, it's nice to see that at least ONE sector of the UK population that are going to be effected by HMG are actually doing something visual and obvious to protest what is happening, shame that some of the other people involved aren't so vocal.

Obviously they've been reading the threads on here and have decided that what Frenchie (and some others) said was right!

[/quote]Quite.[:)]  Far too much blithe acceptance on the other side of the channel, imo.  On another forum (not France related) a poster referred to the average Brit reaction to changes to public policy which negatively affect them as being "ever so slightly miffed." 

[just john]

[quote user="cooperlola"] as being "ever so slightly miffed." [/quote] I like that CL, [:)]

I have to say I don't see any furtherance of a cause being achieved by criminal damage.
The police seem to veer from GBH to newspaper sellers to allowing an alleged organised protest to become an out of control riot.
It seems to me that actually they were giving a little protest of their own, -  cut the force and get this kind of response.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I'm going to be a student soon.

Do I need to revolt?

(awaits the predictable, 'no you're already revolting' comment)

PS I've already paid for my course up front.

[Poppy]

 I think it's a really positive sign that students are 'revolting' instead of just talking about getting on the property ladder etc.

[woolybanana]

Those who are revolting are 'casseurs' with no intention of having any form of discussion or dialogue. They just want to smash and break and challenge both the police and the establishment, violently.

By all means, robust demonstration but not violence.

 

[Frederick]

As for the students who smashed their way into the  Conservative Party building .  Causing who knows how many thousands of pounds worth of damage.  I suppose many on here will be outraged if they are thrown off their course and directed to Tesco for a life of shelf stacking  when they get a conviction for criminal damage ...

Well I hope they do get thrown off their courses and a part of their shelf stacking wages goes to repair the damage if it takes all their lives ...  Who's fault would it have been if some idiot had started a fire in there  and and the people on the roof ended up as charred remaines in rubbble ... Not the students anybody but  it seems to those who enjoyed the sight of a riot in the UK ..and want to see more .

I believe in law and order ..rioters deserve to be punished ..

Todays action was stupid by going for the Conservative Party building they have made the issue personal ... I think they will now see a toughter stand against them... If there was a chance of another look at tuition fees ....I imagine thats over now .

[just john]

I'm with you Fred, it doesn't mater who owned the building or who did it, violence of the mob has no reward in my book.
We need people who can see the way forward not the way back to Neanderthal genome. If that's how they feel perhaps they could get a job with Balfour Beatty and do something constructive, they're obviously not suited to University education.

[Frenchie]

Tonight on French Tv they presented it as if the ones who damaged the building were "casseurs " who joigned the protesting students .

Same as in France then ?

Anyway I can't help thinking a reaction from the students is positive.

So, I would be responsible for it ? [;-)]

 Are they going to burn me alive like Jeanne d'Arc ?? [Www]

[woolybanana]

They were probably some of the same people. I remember years ago watching the hippy wagons going down the motorway through Belgium towards the Channel, when  there was some G8 or something in London. Foned the Embassy chap to see if they could be sorted. Maybe they were turned round, who knows.

Though UK has plenty of homegrown troublemakers.

[AnOther]

In a system where to leave school with less than a dozen A++++ results and a place at a uni is seen as complete and abject failure I think a great deal of what was witnessed is down to the continual decline in the standard of university intakes.

Intelligent and properly educated people do not resort to gratuitous violence and vandalism.

[Bob T]

I find it amazing that the UK government has to make cuts to pay off the huge debt that they have, but every organisation or group thinks that those cuts should not apply to them.

Why is it that every teenager thinks that they have the right to go to uni at no cost to them?

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

To me, once they've qualified, they only have to pay back a tiny amount a year once they earn over a certain amount. Why not lower this threshold so more money is coming in quicker? The government is paying out in loans all the time, but get dribs and drabs back in. Of course it's struggling.

[woolybanana]

It seems logical for parents to put money aside for their children's higher education just as they do for school fees. This could become standard practice.

Plus a huge increase in the grants/scholarships available to the bright less fortunate.

Back to the direct grant schools perhaps, which were excellent institutions IMNVHO as well as Universities which teach degree and HND subjects that are relevant and needed. Not everyone needs a degree, though a good technical HND can be a jewel.

[Frederick]

It might be a good idea to give more effort to raking in the huge amount of cash the student loan people seem to be unable to get back due to fraud by overseas students  ..  There are lots of students who have dissapeared from the system in a deliberate attempt to avoid repayment ..That includes a hell of a lot from France  who are happy to rip off the UK system .

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

Don't overseas students have to pay up front though? If not, then they should.

[nectarine]

I heard on today's news that one rioter threw a fire extinguished from the roof of a building .... so whatever sympathy I had for the students just disappeared with that. Surely (if there were people below) that's attempted murder?

Peaceful protest yes, but violence no. I hope the police look at the film and arrest those who are clearly visible - who kicked the windows in - and charge them.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="AnOther"]In a system where to leave school with less than a dozen A++++ results and a place at a uni is seen as complete and abject failure I think a great deal of what was witnessed is down to the continual decline in the standard of university intakes.

Intelligent and properly educated people do not resort to gratuitous violence and vandalism.

[/quote]

With "A" levels i Maths Physics, Chemistry,Geography and Spanish; I popped into Imperial for 3 years; I much enjoyed participating in Grosvenor Square in 1967 and in Paris in 1968.

I regard myself as intelligent and properly educated.[6]

[AnOther]

Does that mean you did indulge in gratuitous violence and vandalism then ?

[pachapapa]

[quote user="AnOther"]Does that mean you did indulge in gratuitous violence and vandalism then ?

[/quote]

I fancy Solidarity & International Socialist did not call it indulgence. All against the backdrop of the Vietnam War, sort of half time turning point. Heroic & memorable times in London.

[ericd]

Well you have to look at it both ways...those students (and they are students and they are students as I did not see any balaclavas or motorcycle helmets in sight.......) are full of Thestosterones and a tad concerned about the costs of studies to come. It's all ok for you guys, you might have a degree and you most probably did not pay for it. We have two daughters at Uni (eldest doing a Masters at LSE) and fees are already crippling. Imagine the future when all student will be called Ruppert and Miranda darling.Our niece who wanted to study fashion design at Manchester Uni will certainly not be able to afford these new high fees (nor her parents for that matter) but she won't be getting any help because their salaries are too high in the scale of things.

Those students have been lied to by the new coalition with Mr Nick on record shortly before the election stating that he would not touch universities fees.

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="ericd"]It's all ok for you guys, you might have a degree and you most probably did not pay for it. We have two daughters at Uni (eldest doing a Masters at LSE) and fees are already crippling. Imagine the future when all student will be called Ruppert and Miranda darling.[/quote]

Eric, your daughter has impecable taste, I did one of my first degrees and a Masters at LSE back in the 80s (mature student) and my partner worked there in academic departments for 25 years.  LSE has changed so much, we were back there a few weeks ago for a reunion and there's nothing of the old School left, only the buldings and the whole ethos has changed.  The proportion of high fee paying students is crazy, mainly from abroad but that's what keeps the LSE afloat, post-grad students on all the programmes, who are mainly funded by their governments, not by their parents or by themselves.

Interestingly, I've just been looking at the fees for doing another Masters here in France at a specialist research centre in Pau.  The costs are horrendous (I jest of course), for people on benefit or continuing from a first degree, it's €272 (two hundred and seventy two) per year and for those paying full fees, €392 per year.

OK, I know that's it's comparing apples and oranges but to me it's the mind set that matters.

On BBC tele this morning I saw Danny Finkelstein telling people that rich parents and yoof that could afford to pay should pay - yep, the same Danny F with rich parents who, with Steve Pound the Labour MP who advocated bringing in fees as an unofficial ordinary bloke spokesman for the previous government, were at LSE as the same time as me and were members of the Labour/Social Democrat Clubs and who got their educations for free.  Like me, Steve was a mature student at a time when mature students were treated very well by the grants and benefits system, just before the Joseph reforms were introduced so for him to advocate changes really smacked of political opportunism if not outright hypocracy.

The LSE academics and admin people that we had the reunion with a few weeks ago told me that the days of the groups of mature 'home' students working at the College were long gone because THEY cannot afford to go there, something that really undermines the life of the school as they brought a life experience and a motivation that the 18/19 year old wannabees no longer have. 

[Edward Trunk]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

They were probably some of the same people. I remember years ago watching the hippy wagons going down the motorway through Belgium towards the Channel, when  there was some G8 or something in London. Foned the Embassy chap to see if they could be sorted. Maybe they were turned round, who knows.

Though UK has plenty of homegrown troublemakers.

[/quote]

So woolybanana is a coppers' nark? Who'd have thought it?

[Quillan]

Well heres my two pennies worth. One of the problems I have read about is the amount of students at universities, there is a lot, far higher than ever before. In fact it has risen by over 44% in the last 10 years. The next point is those that leave universities are finding ever increasingly more difficult to find a job, this year it was reported that it was as low as 1 in 50, the lowest since 1999. Coupled with this is that the average student debt is around £27,000 when they leave. So to cut to the point there are far to many students and when they leave university there are no jobs yet they are saddled with a massive debt.

The other issue is youth unemployment. It seems clear to me, but others will disagree I am sure, that the last government was blinded to the problem of what to do with students when they finish university, they just hoped that something would turn up. Reducing  youth unemployment by getting them to university was a temporary fix to the then large number of young unemployed for being at university they were in full time education hence not registered as unemployed. All they did in reality is to move the problem forward by 5 or 10 years.

Taking all this in to account I can see that the current student population is rather upset, enticed to go to university, told the world is you oyster when you have your degree and there will be loads of jobs, well it isn't and there are not that many jobs and then to add insult to injury you are going to have to pay more for your education. Obviously worst hit are those half way through their degree so I can see they have a point.

All that aside I do not think the storming of Millbank Towers and the wanton destruction was necessary as the Conservatives are not the only people to have offices there. I can understand the students despair but it does not warrant this type of action. Watching the news it seems that many of the students, whilst they understood the anger, did not approve of this action. Obviously from the reports I have seen and read another example of everyone being blamed for a very small minority who, in my opinion acted very badly.