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Poppy Protest


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My wife was a 'victim' caught up by a Muslim demonstration timed for 1100 yesterday in London.

She, and her fellow travellers, treated the demonstrators with contempt whilst observing the silence, but.....there was a lot of latent anger, not least amongst the Police who were controlling the demonstration.

Braco, you are an idiot.
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Do you know, I really do hope that those involved in the 'anti-poppy' protests yesterday have all been rounded up and incarcerated prior to being shipped out.

There is tolerance and the right to protest ingrained in western society and long may it continue but, in some areas of life in the UK, surely it is time to say enough is enough.

.

 

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Braco,

When you consider denigrating the armed forces consider this:-

Primo Levi mentions in The Truce, a child called Hurbineck, "a nobody, a child of death, a child of Auschwitz" who died aged 3 or thereabouts as the result of massive debilitation and disability caused or exacerbated by imprisonment in the concentration camp where he was born.

There would have been many more such victims if it was not for the sacrifices made by those who answer the call and who still do.
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Historically, the West has tried to impose their religion on others, for example, the Crusades.

 

Hopefully, the World is now a more civilised place.

 

In the UK there are Mosques springing up everywhere and laws to prevent racial discrimination.

 

And then there are the countries that some of the protestors come from. Where there is only one religion permitted and cries of ‘death to the infidels’. Where to die killing the ‘non-believers’ will gain you entry to Paradise (I always think it strange that their leaders are not keen to get to Paradise as soon as possible).

 

And the assertion that their religion will rule the World. Where stoning to death for acts such as adultery is the norm.

 

Yes Braco I can see your point – let them take over and we will have a lovely World.

I presume you are also a Holocaust denier.

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[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]I'm glad it didn't get a massive amount of media coverage.

The day is about remembering, not about a few mindless thugs who think it's great to set fire to a few artificial poppies.

Give them the little attention they deserve.[/quote]

The thing to ask is why the Sun gave it this prominence and published the photographs in such an inflammatory style.

Surely this is an example of extreme manipulation of public opinion?

The Sun has an appalling history of exploiting a pseudo-jingoism to sell copies. Remember "GOTCHA" ?

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Despite my loathing of their actions I think they should have been dealt with under the law applying to any UK citizen. It would be interesting to see the BNP hold a similar demonstration e.g. Afghans burn in hell, burning the Koran on the streets etc. Would the authorities stand by and just manage it ? Would I be allowed to light a bonfire in the street ? My inclination is that these actions would provoke charges for enticement to racial hatred and civil order offences. They are entitled to their offensive views, as is Braco, but they should be dealt with on the same basis as anyone else. I do believe they weren't.

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The truly nutty thing is, they cannot prove their religion is the true one anyway (just as no one of any other religion can), so why fight and kill over something that probably doesn't exist anyway? Complete insanity.

Remember that idiot in the US recently who was condemned for inciting his parishoners to burn the koran in protest? The amount of coverage that got, I think he backed down in the end.

Looking at it from a neutral point of view, it really is comical in a way. In order to burn these objects, these pieces of paper, plastic and whatever, they are having to buy them, so all they are doing is just burning their money - idiots.
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Braco, I really don't see how you can equate a poppy with a swastika.  I'm not going to say why I might wear a poppy or not - I'm not against people, like Quakers, wearing white poppies either because they are anti-war - but your views are deeply offensive to many many people and the reaction here, from people that I know personally and hold in high regard, for their intellectual integrity and ability to think for themselves, speaks volumes.

Sometimes people should go with dear Oscar's observation that keeping your mouth shut and letting people think you're a fool rather than opening it and proving that you are.

Pitiful.

And btw Braco it's 'toe' the party line, not 'tow', if you're full of indignant and inflammatory comment, at least spell it correctly

 

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Braco those comments were out of order.

I never fought in a war but my late father did(Burma). Yesterday was the day to wear your poppy with pride and remember the ones who fought and laid down their lives.

Those scum burning the poppies are beneath contempt.
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One other point; the poppy is not a military symbol but a  .british legion., one, made by and proceeds used for wounded ex-servicemen.

The first official Legion Poppy Day was held in Britain on 11 November 1921, inspired by the poem In Flanders' Fields written by John McCrae, 1915. 

In Flanders' fields the poppies blow,  Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place: and in the sky, The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the dead. Short days ago, We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie, In Flanders' fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe; To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high, If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders' Fields.

 

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[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]I'm glad it didn't get a massive amount of media coverage.

The day is about remembering, not about a few mindless thugs who think it's great to set fire to a few artificial poppies.

Give them the little attention they deserve.[/quote]

The thing to ask is why the Sun gave it this prominence and published the photographs in such an inflammatory style.

Surely this is an example of extreme manipulation of public opinion?

The Sun has an appalling history of exploiting a pseudo-jingoism to sell copies. Remember "GOTCHA" ?

[/quote]

The Sun is a disgusting excuse for a paper & you are quite right it was done in a way to incite anger and sell copy.

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[quote user="greyman"]Despite my loathing of their actions I think they should have been dealt with under the law applying to any UK citizen. It would be interesting to see the BNP hold a similar demonstration e.g. Afghans burn in hell, burning the Koran on the streets etc. Would the authorities stand by and just manage it ? Would I be allowed to light a bonfire in the street ? My inclination is that these actions would provoke charges for enticement to racial hatred and civil order offences. They are entitled to their offensive views, as is Braco, but they should be dealt with on the same basis as anyone else. I do believe they weren't.

[/quote]

Agree, greyman.

I fear it a function of a political system gone mad, overdosed on Political Correctness and fear: fear of being seen to be discriminatory and less than compliant of race and religion, to the point where all branches of government and its operational organs are constantly in fear of being accused of various isms: and the legal consequences which inevitably follow.

Problem is, militants invariably discount kindness and compassion and see these as weaknesses.

My own position is very simple: I can and have, taken issue with the UK government on the invasion  of Iraq; and the British military presence in Afghanistan. And, generally, I abhor war as totally inhuman and heinous and believe it must only be employed as a final and last resort.

That said and however, our military personnel took an oath of allegiance and obedience to HM The Queen and the State when joining and taking the Queen's Shilling.

They do not make the political and strategic decisions: they simply serve: without question, without argument.

It is called loyalty to the cause and the ethos of their organisation.

And thank goodness for that!

We therefore owe it to currently serving personnel and those who so sadly have given their lives for us and for our country, to honour them, respect their bravery and sacrifice and at this special time, remember them.

Anything or anyone which or who denigrates such bravery and sacrifice and dismisses those people and their bravery, on our behalf, is beyond acceptance.

Our house in the North of France is surrounded by military battle sites and more poignantly, cemeteries: a sobering experience is to walk quietly and respectfully through them and read the names and more importantly, ages of those who fell in The Great War.

Anyone who comes to my country and makes mockery of this sacrifice and the sacrifice of my family and friends should be ejected.

How bloody dare they!

And as for the comment that it was a glaring headline opportunity exploited by the Sun; check out the media online over the past two years.

Remember Luton? Wootton Basset? The defacing of the War memorial in Burton-on-Trent? Etc.

On a much brighter note and as a follow on from last evening, I'm going to the meeting and formal dinner in January where a serving NCO on leave from the Afghan theatre is attending, in dress uniform to accept the money (Which will be added to meanwhile!) on behalf of Help the Heroes.

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Just picked this up from a Canadian Facebook chum:

"A Veteran is someone, who at one point in their life, wrote a blank cheque payable to Canada for an amount up to, and including, their life.That is beyond honour, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer remember that fact"

And not only Canada if Braco is anything to go by.
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Braco, you are entitled to your point of view, as are the daft people in the photo in that redtop rag, as am I and as are all on this forum.  But to throw your toys out of your pram and go off in a huff just as you are losing the argument, simply serves to prove what a silly argument it was in the first place.  It does not prove that others on this forum have closed minds.  Far from it, it only proves that you have.
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This was sent to me from an unknown source, I am posting it because it appealed to me.

''They join for many reasons to march, to sail, to fly, they went where they were posted but nobody joins to die. Their leaders talk on TV what else could we have done? But those leaders lost no daughters and none has lost a son. So heres to all our soldiers wherever they may be...and heres to all their families, I raise a glass to thee...Wear your poppy with pride''
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I think some people on both sides of this argument have shown closed and prejudiced minds. I sympathise fully with those who are opposed to wars and military actions. I am also perfectly willing, and happy, to wear a poppy.

I don't see those as mutually exclusive views. To me, the whole point of the poppy is that it symbolises something that happened in the past, that we cannot change, and that we certainly should not forget because it holds the key to peace today. To abandon remembrance celebrations and the poppy goes against truly pacifist views. Remembering the horrors of the past surely should make us, today, less willing to engage in further conflicts rather than more so.

 

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Whilst I agree there are some wars that could be avoided, and I should state I would prefer to do so, there are others where we have little choice, sometimes we have to stand up and be counted, as in the 2nd world war, didn't we try the alternatives first? did we have a choice, what was the alternative. 

When this happens who should make the decision? and who should we expect to fight them? and how should we treat them afterwards?, is there any escaping these ethical dilemmas . . .

(I am on the correct thread[:)])

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Last weekend there was a programme on the BBC showing a film that had been taken over northern France in 1919.

There were huge water filled craters and mud everywhere.

The comment was made fall in to a crater and you would probably die.

Earlier in the year programmes about the Battle of Britain – an event where the pilots normally lasted a few lights before losing their life.

Also bomber command where the chances of losing your life was high.

And in France the memorials to the Resistance fighters who died – one where 20 odd were hanged with piano wire.

All stopping the spread of a brutal regime trying to gain World domination.

What would life be like if they had succeeded we will not know. Life might be better but it might be worse – especially if not from the right race.

I count myself as lucky that I have not been actively involved in a war.

I am extremely grateful to those who gave their lives so that I can live in a democracy and not a dictatorship.

I also remember commenting to an Arab, in the 70s, how terrible it was that Arabs and Jews were killing one another. Her comment was ‘that is nothing, far more Arabs kill other Arabs’.

In Iraq and Afghanistan (and I make no comment on the actions there) the various religious factions are killing one another. A total lack of tolerance of one another, yet the West is expected to tolerate .

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