Anything strike you as odd about this sentence?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Hoddy"]the book said both were correct. Hoddy[/quote]Which book?  The correct (my[:D]) way allows for no doubt as to the meaning, whereas the apostrophe after the s and without the second one does, thus I will never see it as right.

[Hoddy]

Neither will I Coops.

The book was "A Practical English Grammar" by A.J. Thomson & A.V. Martinet, OUP 1988.

Lynne Truss says, 'If the name ends in "iz" sound, an exception is made:

Bridges' score

Moses' tablets.'

She goes on to say that these are matters of style and preference that are not set in stone.

Not feeling confident enough to argue about it I shall continue to apply the rule as you do.

Hoddy

[Chancer]

There is a "Corner's Bar" in my local town, the guy who owns it doesn't give a rats about correct grammar and is likely to make you taste the pavement in a very load and public display of his displeasure if you raise the subject ,as many have already discovered.

I have however recently learned that the name and spelling was chosen for him by the community de communes together with the tourist office.

Editted, they maintain that it is the correct way of saying "the bar on the corner"

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Hoddy"]Neither will I Coops. The book was "A Practical English Grammar" by A.J. Thomson & A.V. Martinet, OUP 1988. Lynne Truss says, 'If the name ends in "iz" sound, an exception is made: Bridges' score Moses' tablets.' She goes on to say that these are matters of style and preference that are not set in stone. Not feeling confident enough to argue about it I shall continue to apply the rule as you do. Hoddy[/quote]

I had a discussion with a proof reader over this once, my argument was that I was taught that if adding the es or 's made it sound awkward then it was omitted.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

[quote user="Hoddy"]Neither will I Coops. The book was "A Practical English Grammar" by A.J. Thomson & A.V. Martinet, OUP 1988. Lynne Truss says, 'If the name ends in "iz" sound, an exception is made: Bridges' score Moses' tablets.' She goes on to say that these are matters of style and preference that are not set in stone. Not feeling confident enough to argue about it I shall continue to apply the rule as you do. Hoddy[/quote]

I had a discussion with a proof reader over this once, my argument was that I was taught that if adding the es or 's made it sound awkward then it was omitted.

[/quote]It doesn't sound awkward at all - I don't think that is a good enough argument. 

Thomas's book : The book belonging to Thomas.

Thomas' book : The book belonging to many people by the name of Thoma

The two things have different meanings  that is why I believe this is important.  Thomasiz  book may be awkward for some to pronounce (although I cannot for the life of me see why) but then lots of things are "difficult" to pronounce - it doesn't necessarily mean we should therefore write them incorrectly.   Let's start spelling rough as ruff; love as luv and night as nite etc - then spelling would be easier too (great for me, for one) - if the argument holds water for one, then it does so for the other.

[Russethouse]

 I think the discussion I had was about people who had a longish surname ending in 'ess', if reading allowed it sounded odd.

 I personally don't like the way 'police' is often made plural where as to my mind it would be better to make a different sentence ie: 'The polices responce was X', where as I think it sounds much better to say 'the reponse of the police was x' or 'the police responded'

The word  police is surely a name to described a group, thus plural in its own right, it doesn't need to have es added, but I expect I'm wrong!

[cooperlola]

The police's response, yes (the response of the police) but certainly not without the apostrophe. [:-))]

What do you make of the winner of the World Hurdle, R/H?

[idun]

Two things that drive me mad and are spoken rather than written. One is draw ring instead of drawing. And the other is something I have noticed recently and that is people saying 'sic' instead of sixth. Is it really that hard to say the 'x' sound and the 'th' sound.

If I understood half of the stuff mentioned on this thread it would be a miracle. I'm not thick, but I'm not 'clever' either. I'm still unsure what an ad verb is and my lovely teacher tried to teach me that  in primary school and I remember it feeling like I was paddling in molasses during each lesson. Good job something 'clicked' that I was good at it, and that was math or is it maths?[8-)]

[cooperlola]

You made me smile, Idun.  Do you rememeber Scalextric?  Another word that is apparently impossible to pronounce correctly (OK, it's a brand name, I accept, but it's as if the letter x sends the most erudite into a tizzy!)

Asterisk (not the French cartoon character) is another one.

The other one that always gets to me is artic for arctic and vice-versa.

My father taught English and thus I spent most of my childhood having my grammar corrected by him (because he didn't read much of my written work I missed out on his wisdom re spelling, sadly).  I'm lousy at mathematics but my arithmetic has improved as I've got older.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

The police's response, yes (the response of the police) but certainly not without the apostrophe. [:-))]

What do you make of the winner of the World Hurdle, R/H?

[/quote]

 What as in if he dropped a shoe and I found it - I would say this is Big Buck's shoe, not this is Big Bucks's/Big Buck's's shoe because it sounds ugly to me.

[cooperlola]

He was bred in France and thus, I suspect, that somebody had been poorly taught their English punctuation, since I doubt he belonged to somebody called Big Buck (which would be the only way that Big Buck's could make sense.)  If we give them the benefit of the doubt though and this really is what was meant, then yes, it would be Big Buck's's shoe which was lost.  However, I think it's much more likely that this a grocers' apostrophe and that it's meant simply as a plural (as in - whilst he was cavorting around the paddock in his youth somebody remarked: "My goodness, what big bucks) and so Big Bucks's shoe would be right, but never Big Bucks' shoe as this would be the shoe of several horses called Big Buck.

The point about the correct use of language, it has always seemed to me, is to obviate ambiguity.  All these have distinctly different meanings:

Big Bucks

Big Bucks'

Big Bucks's

Big Buck's's

and by maintaining the difference, we can distinguish between them.  To change them on a whim is to invite confusion.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 I think the discussion I had was about people who had a longish surname ending in 'ess', if reading allowed it sounded odd.

 I personally don't like the way 'police' is often made plural where as to my mind it would be better to make a different sentence ie: 'The polices responce was X', where as I think it sounds much better to say 'the reponse of the police was x' or 'the police responded'

The word  police is surely a name to described a group, thus plural in its own right, it doesn't need to have es added, but I expect I'm wrong!

[/quote]

 

Surely in this instance the "police response" is quite acceptable using police as a qualifying noun.

[Russethouse]

I agree but the BBC tend to say  'the polices response' gggrrrr!

Lets not get started about 'two times' when twice is a perfectly adequate word !

[woolybanana]

Remember the element of cock up too, as in

Seared chicken skewers marinaded in lime, chilli and mint and served with a crunchy oriental salad

in today's Telegraph

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

I agree but the BBC tend to say  'the polices response' gggrrrr!

Lets not get started about 'two times' when twice is a perfectly adequate word !

[/quote]Nothing wrong with twice but I do remember learning the two times table by rote sixty something years ago.[:D]

[Judith]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

You made me smile, Idun.  Do you rememeber Scalextric?  Another word that is apparently impossible to pronounce correctly (OK, it's a brand name, I accept, but it's as if the letter x sends the most erudite into a tizzy!)

Asterisk (not the French cartoon character) is another one.

The other one that always gets to me is artic for arctic and vice-versa.

My father taught English and thus I spent most of my childhood having my grammar corrected by him (because he didn't read much of my written work I missed out on his wisdom re spelling, sadly).  I'm lousy at mathematics but my arithmetic has improved as I've got older.

[/quote]

No problem pronouncing either scalextric or asterisk (if you don't rush, it's easy) and I'm happy to say that as far as I know I had a good English grammar education so this debate has been interesting..... as I recall showing possession with a name which ends already in "s" is that it should be "s'" only  and that it is pronounced without the extra "esses"...   but this was in annees soixantes so who knows how they have changed it since then.

However, what I do say (and here I would agree with someone like Lynn Truss), whatever is said (written) should make the meaning clear .... some of the examples given above do not do that.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Judith"]However, what I do say (and here I would agree with someone like Lynn Truss), whatever is said (written) should make the meaning clear .... some of the examples given above do not do that.
[/quote]We obviously do need Mr Smith, Woolyb!

Sorry if I failed to convey my point properly.  (Although, to explain a little, the Big Buck's example was for R/H specifically as she knows that I mean the race horse with the poor punctuation.)  I must look up Ms Truss on the subject of possessive plurals.

I'd like to bet that the Queen says St James's Park (and not St James'.)  Horrid to see that Newcastle seems to have altered the name of its ground to suit this modern fad.  When I visited the North East on a regular basis from the 50s to the 90s it was called St James's and that's what all the fans called it too.

[britgirl]

Just for fun  http://www.savethecomma.com/game/ 

I'm not telling you my score. [Www]

[Judith]

100% correct! 

[JSKS]

100,% , wrong.

[Russethouse]

 The thing that causes most discussion chez R/H is the pronounciation of the word 'tour'. I say 'too err' or 'too urr' where as Miss R/H insists it should be 'tor' which I say is a hill in Devon [:'(]

How do you pronounce the name of the French town, Tours? Tooors/Tors ?

[pachapapa]

Same as the bicycle race.

Not to be confused with Thouars!

Not far away.

But south of la loire, on le thouet, unlike le loir.[;-)]

[pachapapa]

Ogg file;

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:Fr-Paris--Tours.ogg?match=fr

[Charly]

Don't you mean prostRate cancer, which was mentioned in a daily newspaper the other day ? [:)]  I had an elderly aunt who used to complain when she had a bad cough that her "bronnicles were playing up".  She was amusing and since she was not writing or reporting for public consumption, it never mattered.

Then there are the reporters on tv who constantly refer to the Pleece arresting a suspect.   Then all the people who say that they are "fed up of " something instead of "with".  And what about using "of" in verbs such as "would have, could have, should have"  - it seems that almost every kid on the south coast of England tries to get away with  "would of, could of, should of". 

Then there's the often strangled pronunciation of Trevor MacDonald on tv - and even when he used to read the news.  And he belongs to some group which was set up to promote and preserve correctly spoken English !!!  Yeah, right............ One of his crimes is constantly saying "Ware now going over to the studio" instead of "We're or We are".  Just not the best role model for all those listeners and viewers.

Then there's the age-old apostrophe problem :  Tomato's (instead of the plural - Tomatoes) Runner Bean's, Cauliflower's, Egg's, All day Breakfast's........on signs the length and breadth of English towns. I was taught that if there's more than one item being described, an "s" or "es" will do. The use of the apostrophe has nothing to do with loads of tomatoes, eggs, runner beans or anything else in the plural.

Sadly, I don't believe that grammar is important now and certainly not important in schools as it was when I was a child (at about the same time they invented the wheel, you would think!) Some people can barely spell now and is it any wonder when so many children write like they "txt" and are actually allowed to get away with it, often because they need to be really encouraged to express themselves in writing.

Ooh I feel so much better for that little rant, and to find  that so many of us are irritated in exactly the same way.    

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Charly"]

and to find  that so many of us are irritated in exactly the same way.    

[/quote]True.  [:)]

Although we may disagree upon the finer points of grammar and punctuation, and although some of us (mea culpa) could not spell if our lives were at stake (or is that steak?[;-)]), at least we agree that we should try to make what we write understandable.

I would hate to think that anybody would keep their mouths shut, or not put fingers to keyboard, simply because they were afraid of being picked upon about their sentence construction, but I do think it's a shame that some seem to think it's unimportant at least to try.  One person's point of view is just as valid as another's, but it is much easier for the articulate and literate to win an argument.  That is why, imho, making an effort to write clear and understandable English is so important.  Allowing the wrong-headed to win a dispute just because they are better at putting their point of view forward is a tragedy, thus it is in everybody's interest to attempt to express themselves well, whatever the medium.