Social Charges - here we go again!

[parsnips]

Hi,

        Update;  receipt of my demand was acknowledged by local office  12/10/2018;  16/10/2018 I was advised it had been passed to the legal dept. at La Rochelle; nothing received since then  - which I cautiously take as a good sign . 

[mint]

Thank you, Parsnips, for your input.  I have now consulted my secure messagerie as there has been no further communication from my local tax office.

Against my request, in the column titled "status", it says that my email is awaiting an answer from DGFiP, so they are unable to act or reply without guidance from further up? 

At least I now know that others besides me continue to wait.  Thank you to everyone who has contributed by their responses.

[juswundrin2]

Had a reply yesterday that they'll get back to us after the Court's final decision.

[mint]

Juswunderin2, I expect that it's now the same for everybody.....waiting to hear what the court says.

[fittersmate]

Update: Today we have received 3 letters informing us that our claim has been forwarded to the legal department in Vannes - one letter for each of the years claimed for (2015, 2016 and 2017) and with individual reference no. for each year.

[nomoss]

I copied and pasted a slightly modified form of juswundrin2's letter to SIP Carcassonne via their message system on November 8th, and received the following reply on November 22:-

"Bonjour,

Votre réclamation a bien été prise en compte.

Cordialement,

Mme Isabelle CAMILLO

Contrôleur principal des Finances Publiques

"

[Evianers]

As the OP of this thread, I would like to say thank you to all who responded and who provided some very helpful information.

It is now 30 days since we registered our claim via secure messages and, like most people, it says that it is awaiting a response from the DGFIP. I'm guessing that our local office have kicked it upstairs to Annecy - who in turn have probably kicked it higher upstairs to Lyon.

All we can do now is wait until the result of the Government's appeal is known, so - back to sleep.

Regards to all,

Sheila's OH

[nomoss]

On Friday (30/11) I received a letter from Isabelle Camillo, dated 22/11/2018, with the following information:

"Votre demande, ............................................., a été transmise au service compétent : DIRECTION CONTROLE FISCAL ............ "

[mint]

Haven't heard a dicky bird.  However, I have to go in tomorrow so might bring up the subject of my email.

Just received a letter with a demande for the taxe foncière with a fine added.  As I pay by prélèvement, how can it be my fault if they don't take the money?

[richard51]

Just pay it - It cant be much by your standards and i'm sure there are more needy people.,

Its like donating to a charity but without the publicity.

[parsnips]

Hi,

   Just received this from legal dept;

Vous avez fait une réclamation auprès du SIP de Jonzac le

10/08/2018.

Cette réclamations vise les prélèvements sociaux appliqués sur vos

revenus de capitaux mobiliers perçus en 2015 pour lesquels il est

demandé l'application de la jurisprudence De Ruyter.

Il convient de vous apporter l'information suivante.

L'article 24 de la loi n° 2015-1702 du 21/12/2015 du financement de

la sécurité sociale pour 2016 a entendu tirer les conséquences de la

jurisprudence de Ruyter en modifiant l'affectation budgétaire des

prélèvements sociaux assis sur les revenus du capital afin de

s'assurer la mise en conformité de ces impositions au droit de

l'Union Européenne à compter du 1er janvier 2016. Désormais, à

compter de cette date, les prélèvements sociaux dus sur les revenus

du capital sont affectés à des structures qui financent des

prestations qui n'entrent pas dans le champ d'application de la

réglementation communautaire de coordination des systèmes de

Sécurité sociale; mais ils servent des prestations destinées à

garantir à leurs bénéficiaires un revenu minimal de subsistance, et

dont l'attribution n'est pas réservée à des personnes affiliées à la

Sécurité sociale en France. Les réclamations formulées devraient

donc faire, au fond, l'objet d'un rejet.

Toutefois la compatibilité  des impôts en cause avec le droit de

l'Union européenne est actuellement contestée.

Le Tribunal Administratif de Strasbourg, dans une décision rendue le

11 juillet 2017, a jugé que les changements d'affectation budgétaire

opérés laissaient subsister un lien direct et suffisamment pertinent

avec certaines branches de la sécurité sociale, ce qui rendait le

nouveau dispositif français contraire au principe d'unicité énoncé

au règlement européen.

Dans l'arrêt rendu le 31 mai 2018, la Cour Administrative d'Appel

(CAA) de Nancy a pour l'essentiel confirmé le jugement du Tribunal

Administratif  de Strasbourg en jugeant en particulier que la

fraction des prélèvements sociaux affectés au Fonds de Solidarité

Vieillesse (FSV) et à la Caisse d'Amortissement de la Dette Sociale

(CADES) étaient contraires au droit de l'Union Européenne, pour les

personnes affiliées à la sécurité sociale dans un autre Etat membre.

La CAA a en revanche sollicité l'arbitrage de la CJCE s'agissant des

seules contributions affectées à la Caisse nationale de solidarité

pour l'autonomie.

Le ministre de l'action et des comptes publics s'est pourvu en

cassation le 31 juillet 2018 contre l'arrêt de la CAA.

En conséquence, dans l'attente des suites qui seront données à

ces recours, le traitement des réclamations reposant sur cette

problématique, est suspendu pour l'instant et jusqu'à nouvel

ordre.

Je reste à votre disposition pour tout renseignement complémentaire.

Recevez mes sincères salutations,

[nomoss]

Well, that's clear then.[:)]

[Judith]

And probably to be expected.  Think I've better things to do with my time sadly, if this is going to be the standard response now.

[powerdesal]

So, if the processing of claims based on this issue is suspended for the moment and until further notice is there any point in submitting a claim at this time.

I was about to submit a claim when I read the above response and am now wondering whether to bother.

[mint]

Just do it, pd; it only takes a couple of minutes and there is nothing else to lose?  Parsnips did say earlier that you only have till the end of this year to make the claim for the last 2 years.

[Cathar Tours]

I have no interest in this BUT I think if you thought about it you might come to the conclusion that's exactly what they want you to do because it makes their life simpler and there won't be a backlog of claims to sort out later.

[parsnips]

Hi,

   I think people are possibly misreading this; if you do some research , you will find that the government has already , more or less , accepted defeat and is hastily preparing a substitute tax for future years. 

Here are extracts from my reply to that long response and  their answer.; 

"  Bonjour 

  Merci pour votre explication.  Je comprends que ma

reclamation restera en suspens pour le moment.   Entretemps je

vais préparer réclamations pour les années 2017 et 2018 (revenus

de 2016 et 2017). Je pense que j'aurai jusqu'à la fin de 2019

avant de les soumettre (si ,enfin les prélevements sont jugés

incompatibles avec le droit UE), ai-je raison ?

Cordialement,"

"Rebonjour,

Effectivement, pour l'impôt sur le revenu mis en recouvrement en

2017 (revenus 2016), vous avez jusqu'au 31/12/2019 pour émettre

une réclamation.

Quant à l'impôt mis en recouvrement en 2018, vous avez jusqu'au

31/12/2020 pour le faire.

Cordialement,"

[mint]

Something to report but, don't hold your breath, it's nothing definitive, lol!

Email yesterday to say that my request has now been put in the hands of the bods who deal with "contentious" issues.  So, I emailed my local impots end of Oct, was told that my problem has been referred to the impots in Périgueux and now, 3 months later, told that my claim is contentieux and is now in some legal section.

Thought it's only fair to tell you in view of all the help I have had and also to see if anyone else has had any reply from their impots.

alors, à vous?[:)]

[Evianers]

This is actually Sheila...... surprise, surprise!

Our claim is "being dealt with" whatever that means. One can obviously put in one's own interpretation. But not wanting to sound in any way superior or snobbish, we feel that perhaps [probably] the Haute Savoie is geared up to deal with these claims more effectively? Or not? What do others feel - does where you live play a role in all things to do with the dreaded Impots?

[mint]

[quote user="Evianers"]

This is actually Sheila...... surprise, surprise!

Our claim is "being dealt with" whatever that means. One can obviously put in one's own interpretation. But not wanting to sound in any way superior or snobbish, we feel that perhaps [probably] the Haute Savoie is geared up to deal with these claims more effectively? Or not? What do others feel - does where you live play a role in all things to do with the dreaded Impots?

[/quote]

Sheila, I would say that where you live has EVERYTHING to do with the dreaded impots and the dreaded everything else[:-))]

I have holidayed a few times (summer and winter) there and I love being in the Haute Savoie!  Maybe you are just a more sophisticated lot altogether?  Here in the Dordogne, as no doubt ALBF would be quick to confirm, we are mere compagnards!

[mint]

Strange but True![:P]

Had a secure message to say that my query is now closed and that I will get a letter in the post "soon".  Meanwhile, there has been a credit to our bank account.  The amount is at least one nought short of what I was expecting, so not sure if the credit is to do with the repayment of social charges.

I'm not complaining, beggars can't be choosers and as the Tesco ad would have it, "every little helps"!

If anyone else has had money, could they please say if it's money from social charges?

[suein56]

mint wrote : The amount is at least one nought short of what I was expecting, so not sure if the credit is to do with the repayment of social charges.

Recently older friends, who have paid-for help in the home, have received an advance on the rebate that is normally paid after the tax avis in August.

These are those people who use chèque emploi and the like.

It is unlikely to be the social contributions rebate as the final decision/agreement/statement hasn't been declared yet

[mint]

Ah, thank you, Sue.  That would be it as that sounds about right amount-wise.

[woolybanana]

Could some kind soul please point me to or send me a template letter to reclaim social charges? I used to have one somewhere but it has done the proverbial bunk at some time.

Merci buckets in advance.

[Evianers]

Here is the one that we used to make our claim on the secure messages section of the Impots website:

Monsieur/Madame,

Suite au jugement du 11 juillet 2017 du tribunal Administratif de Strasbourg, confirmé par la Cour Administrative d’Appel de Nancy le 31 mai 2018, sur la légalité de l'application des Contributions Sociaux (CSG, CRDS, PS) aux revenus des valeurs mobiliers reçus par des étrangers résidents en France, qui ont leurs frais de santé payées par leurs pays d'origine, je voudrais enregistrer, provisoirement, une réclamation (en tant que titulaire de formulaire E121, donc pas à la charge de l'assurance maladie).

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichJuriAdmin.do?oldAction=rechJuriAdmin&idTexte=CETATEXT000037039702&fastReqId=2003156200&fastPos=2&utm_source=Patrimea+Newsletter&utm_campaign=2d014ba9e9-6.Newsletter_Expat_2018_6_27__&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f1ca407

En attendant la décision de la CJUE, je vous prie, dans le cas où la Cour tranche contre l'application de ces charges, de me rembourser les contributions sociaux payées sur mes revenus de valeurs mobiliers reçu pour les années 2015, 2016, 2017 (payées en 2016, 2017. 2018).

Veuillez recevoir, Monsieur/Madame, nos salutations distinguées.

name (numero fiscal)

The long https address in the middle links to the Court of Appeal decisions on the Legifrance website.

Hope that helps.

(Sheila's other half)