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Cameron veto: are we now truly marginalised?


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 After I watched 'This Week' I felt fairly depressed. Cameron knows there is a limit to what he'd get Parliaments agreement for......

Micheal Portillo quoted Boris Johnson (who was I think quoting someone else)  and said rescuing the Euro was like treating the cancer and not the patient.......we live in interesting times.....[8-)]

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[quote user="sweet 17"]I went to bed feeling perfectly normal and I have woken up feeling like an alien.

How about you? [/quote]

No I didn't fancy an alien, bit difficult to find first thing in the morning I imagine! (well anytime really)[:D]

p.s. I think Cameron did the only thing he could; We're already into the Euro for some dodgy debts, why should we let them gorge on the billions paid by the city in taxes for the sake of some flawed political ideology?

 

 

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I am wondering why the EU is giving the IMF 200bn although I think I might know the answer looking back at the origins of the IMF. Basically the biggest doner was the US and they have run out of money so they have to find other sources. Also a lot of that 200bn will end up going to countries like Greece and Italy (in particular), it should have gone to ECB to lend out not the IMF. I see it as being a big like this. I have 100 Euros, pounds or whatever in my bank, I lend it all to you then I am skint. I then borrow it back and you charge me interest on the loan, seems a good way to make money for doing very little. Just in case I go bust the IMF sells on my debt because it knows I will go bust so it pays S&P to give me a AAA+ credit rating, IMF then goes and insures the loan it has sold against failing so when it does it gets another shed load of money and some poor smuck has to pay back the insurance company because it puts it's premiums up, now I wonder who that will be. No wonder Legarde is looking happy, at least if it went to the ECB it would be the EU that collected the interest.

Trading in Euro commodities, bonds etc will of course move away from London, probably to Luxembourg so London is going to loose out anyway so yes in a way Cameron is a bit like Chamberlain because these things will happen as a result of this aggrement. Whilst the EU is reining in the big bonuses and making banks more accountable within the Eurozone yet nothing has changed in the UK and US. The only place we will have to go is to the US, cap in hand, and do you think they will be charitable, when did we finally pay back the money they lent us for the WW", 2008 thats when.

All in all and very sadly for the UK this is the beginning of the end of it's EU membership. It reminds me of the story of how IBM used to get ride of staff. First they took you off the internal mailing lists, then the door to your office was removed, then the pictures, then the phone, then the desk till all you had left was a chair so you left and IBM could say they never sacked anyone.

When you listen to the likes of that idiot from UKIP who when asked about what will happen to the 40% of exports the UK makes to the EU (the UK being the 7th largest manufacturer in the world, we sued to be 6th till 2005) he says it won't make any difference, right so he does not think the EU will put import duty on goods from the UK like it does with the US and other none EU countries. How will he explain the 4M plus people loosing their jobs in the UK which they have as a direct result of the UK being in the EU.

Where do these idiots get their information from that they use to scare the UK public about it costing the UK 40M a day to be a member. If, as stated by the treasury we pay 13.7bn a year do the maths (for those that can't 13.7bn/365=37.5M per day. OK not much of a difference but its still about 900M plus a year. What they then seem to omit is all the money we get back in regional grants, transport grants (new roads, railway lines etc) and loads of other things which brings the figure down to about 10bn a year. But then you have to put all this in perspective, it's less (a hundred times less) than we spend on the NHS and it's three times less than we spend on social services and eight times less than we spend on education. Worse still it three times less than our annual interest bill on the money we owe. But hey, 50M a day certainly makes good news print and without the other information it looks like a lot of money, which it is, but not at much as we wast on other things like defence (four times as much). Basically the only thing we spend less on are foreign economic aid (to China and India of all places to name but a few).

Yes I believe in the EU and yes I am a federalist because I believe the world is one and rather than keep it splintered we should be joining together and not drifting apart and we should live in better harmony. It won't happen in my lifetime, it won't happen in my children's lifetime but it will happen one day.

Sources to name but a few.

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2011UKbn_11bc1n#ukgs302

http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/05/ukips-britain-paying-the-eu-40-million-a-day-claim-vs-the-real-costs-of-uk-eu-membership/

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/eu_statement200809.pdf

 

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I don't see the problem ... we weren't in the euro and we're still not in the euro ! There's talk of a 2 track EU but that has been the case for the past 10 years hasn't it ? I see no case for the UK being asked to bear the biggest hit in the EU sorting out a Eurozone problem. UK didn't join because they foresaw the problems that eventually arose so why should the City have to pay to bail it out.

I see the Press are saying UK is now isolated. A bit like the lifeboats were isolated from the Titanic I guess ![:D]

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Pound's fallen a few points this morning, Pat.

I don't think you're the only person who "can't see the big picture" en ce moment.  I believe that no one, including the politicians, can see anything other than their own little blinkered bit of the jigsaw.

 

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[quote user="sweet 17"]

Pound's fallen a few points this morning, Pat.

I don't think you're the only person who "can't see the big picture" en ce moment.  I believe that no one, including the politicians, can see anything other than their own little blinkered bit of the jigsaw.

[/quote]

More likely the bankers view.

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UK plc has got away with pretending for a long time that it is an important global economy, when in truth London's financial centre is the UK's economy. There has always been a risk that London would lose that position which would have a devestating knock-on effect throughout the country. Hence Cameron's claim that he is taking a tough line to defend the City.

But it looks to me that the days for the City's pre-eminence could be numbered whatever happens now.

Hang onto your seats. You might not have much else left before long.

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Some interesting comments from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/8944990/EU-treaty-and-debt-crisis-live.html#disqus_thread

''So without Britain to kick around, how long do you think it will take Sarkozy and Merkel to be at each other's throats?  Life is never easy with the French.  It's all about them.  

The Europeans got exactly what they wanted an agreement amongst themselves to cut their own throats. All this is very good on paper let's see where they are in five years time. They knew Britain would not sign up to this new treaty because it would put our financial sector at risk yet they insisted on leaving it in there, they caused the split not the UK. 

Indeed. It's sounds like the French in particular pushed it, they wanted us out. Thank goodness.

Now we'll see it all unravel anyway. 

The next step should probably be an invitation to the leaders and people of Germany to join the UK in a free trade area. The alternative for the Germans is that they spend the next several generations working hard to pay taxes to pay for lifestyles of other continental europeans for which they are not prepared, let alone able, to work to provide for themselves. 

The French are reporting it as major triumph against Britain - "Cameron short-circuited", neutered, pushed to one side and the reforms are pushed through anyway. ''

 

I'm reminded of Churchill's quote

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.

 

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26 member nations are for it, and the one marching out of step.

The voting system was fine when the EU was smaller but there is no way that one p.i.t.a country should be able to continually block things.

I wish that the UK government would get out and have a referendum on staying in or getting out and allow the EU to stand or fall without them.
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The Bond markets and Forex markets haven't gone for the "deal". The Swedish PM, and Polish PM are both quoted in the last hour as saying it will fail. Not the best PR!

The cost of EZ borrowing has increased. http://markets.ft.com/RESEARCH/Markets/Government-Bond-Spreads

Quillen, all currencies, except EUR have a central bank, that ultimately stands behind default. The ECB is specifically (on DE instruction) not allowed to fulfil that obligation, neither is it allowed to lend to countries. It does get round this by guaranteeing to lend 100% of the sovereign Bond value purchased by a private sector bank, so the ECB could get Greek debt as collatoral for a loan! Guess where all the trillions of dodgy loans are now! The punchup between the Hausfrau and the Dwarf over the last few weeks was precisely because he wanted the ECB to become a central bank, and in effect bailout France. Merkel said NO!, because she knew Germany would end up paying for everything! She won, and the Dwarf lost, he has to do his 3rd/4th/5th (can't remember) emergency austerity budget.

It is worth pointing out that Credit Rating is reactive. The agencies are only allowed access to public record information, market information, etc. and they react to this. An example would be today's downgrade of French banks. The markets over the last few weeks had already done the dirty and turned the shares into virtual junk. The downgrade wasn't because Moody's knew something they didn't, it was merely reacting to what everyone already knew. SocGen says in it's audited accounts, that it is worth 82billion, the share price says "B*llocks, with all those dodgy loans, you are actually worth 18billion". Moodys reacts to that. They do not "make" the news themselves. I think the media totally overhypes the power of CRAs. (Yes, I use them, but only because the credit insurers demand it, and there's a cozy cartel!)

 

 

 

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I am very politcal, but Cameron has done what I think that he should have done.

I don't like the EU, never have and living in France convinced me that it was a complete folly, including the euro. A common market is the limit of OK for me.

 

What'll happen? well whatever'll happen'll happen.

 

 

When I saw the map, apart from Sweden, it just liked a hash of a map of german occupation map of europe during the second world war to me and we were 'marginalised' then too and a good thing that was....... then.

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[quote user="breizh"]

The Bond markets and Forex markets haven't gone for the "deal". The Swedish PM, and Polish PM are both quoted in the last hour as saying it will fail. Not the best PR!

The cost of EZ borrowing has increased. http://markets.ft.com/RESEARCH/Markets/Government-Bond-Spreads

Quillen, all currencies, except EUR have a central bank, that ultimately stands behind default. The ECB is specifically (on DE instruction) not allowed to fulfil that obligation, neither is it allowed to lend to countries. It does get round this by guaranteeing to lend 100% of the sovereign Bond value purchased by a private sector bank, so the ECB could get Greek debt as collatoral for a loan! Guess where all the trillions of dodgy loans are now! The punchup between the Hausfrau and the Dwarf over the last few weeks was precisely because he wanted the ECB to become a central bank, and in effect bailout France. Merkel said NO!, because she knew Germany would end up paying for everything! She won, and the Dwarf lost, he has to do his 3rd/4th/5th (can't remember) emergency austerity budget.

It is worth pointing out that Credit Rating is reactive. The agencies are only allowed access to public record information, market information, etc. and they react to this. An example would be today's downgrade of French banks. The markets over the last few weeks had already done the dirty and turned the shares into virtual junk. The downgrade wasn't because Moody's knew something they didn't, it was merely reacting to what everyone already knew. SocGen says in it's audited accounts, that it is worth 82billion, the share price says "B*llocks, with all those dodgy loans, you are actually worth 18billion". Moodys reacts to that. They do not "make" the news themselves. I think the media totally overhypes the power of CRAs. (Yes, I use them, but only because the credit insurers demand it, and there's a cozy cartel!)

[/quote]

I don't think we can trust the big three (S&P, Moody's and Fitch) credit rating agencies anymore as Ferguson showed in his film. They are basically corrupt and you can buy a triple A+ credit rating from them if you wish (banks certainly did) which also intimates that you can pay to have somebodies credit rating reduced, if you have enough money that is. Strangely none of these agencies have made any attempt to sue him for his comments and the comments have been backed up by more than one senate committee in the US. The whole bloody thing is a total mess with corruption running riot amongst the financial institutions like kids let loose in a chocolate factory. Trouble is if you end enough chocolate you get very ill and that's what is happening now and nobody, no country, no person can escape the fallout. The only pleasure I have is knowing that when they get to the very bottom and there is nowhere else to go they will turn on the ex CEO's of the institutions whose greed caused a lot of this in the first place. They will also turn on the politicians who recklessly spent money they did not have and then lied about what they had done.

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[quote user="greyman"]I don't see the problem ... 't in the euro and we're still not in the euro ! Twe werenhere's talk of a 2 track EU but that has been the case for the past 10 years hasn't it ? I see no case for the UK being asked to bear the biggest hit in the EU sorting out a Eurozone problem. UK didn't join because they foresaw the problems that eventually arose so why should the City have to pay to bail it out.

I see the Press are saying UK is now isolated. A bit like the lifeboats were isolated from the Titanic I guess ![:D]

[/quote]

France is in the Euro..

Why post here if you don't feel part of the community?

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[quote user="NormanH"]

France is in the Euro..

Why post here if you don't feel part of the community?

[/quote]

Which community Norman ? The forum ? France ? The EU ? The Eurozone ?

I don't think being part of any community denies me an opinion or obliges me to blindly follow it's follies. If this community were to elect a communist government I'd have some things to say about that too.

The post related to Cameron's veto and whether 'we' are now marginalised. I assume 'we' is the UK and as a UK citizen my views were given from that standpoint. The whole euro project has been a  farce which events are now showing and the ludicrous attempts to fix it in arrears are a farce too. Unfortunately the UK will be dragged in to the resulting mess anyway.

By the way I have an interest because I still have a business, a property and money in the UK but live in France. I'm a true European [:D]

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I have been reading the comments about Cameron and the UK (two separate subjects in many French broadsheets) and on the Le Figaro website it ask's the simple question "Le Royaume Uni a-t-il encore sa place en Europe ?". I had to think a bit before I voted and after I had the results came up. Before you read what they are just keep in mind that over 30,000 French on this website have voted, a large number perhaps but only a small percentage of the population and these sort of polls often do not show the true feeling of all the people. Basically the answer at the time I voted NO - 82.07% YES - 17.93%.

A lot of the other papers claim Cameron only said no because he didn't want a referendum because he knows the public will want the UK to leave the EU but they then go on to say that the UK has already effectively left the EU and some say even before today's vote. As RH said, interesting times ahead although I personally feel that the UK will be left in limbo land with nobody to turn too. The only friend the UK seems to have is Hungary, does this mean the UK is thought of as being at the 'international power level' as Hungary i.e. none?

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