Just for interest....

[YCCMB]

As it is oft suggested on these pages that the truly committed  immigrant needs to immerse themselves totally in the social and political life of their adopted country, I thought it might be of interest to some to know that, perhaps regrettably, it isn't really happening on either side of the channel.

I presented my evening class with some photographs last night, in the context of a lesson to discuss UK politics. Ten students. All working in the UK, most here for some considerable time. NOT ONE could identify or name any of the following:

David Cameron

Nick Clegg

Ed Milliband

Boris Johnson

Ken Livingstone

The 3 main UK political parties.

Incidentally, these are not holiday home owners here in the UK, they're permanent residents with jobs who pay UK taxes. They're also ALL very fluent in English.

[NormanH]

Only 10 students? ALL very fluent in English?

Money for old rope...

 Time to change the teacher as they obviously haven't been learning very much?[6]

[just john]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"] NOT ONE could identify or name any of the following:
David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Ed Milliband, Boris Johnson, Ken Livingstone, The 3 main UK political parties.
Incidentally, these are not holiday home owners here in the UK, they're permanent residents with jobs who pay UK taxes. They're also ALL very fluent in English. [/quote]

Need to know basis[:P]

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]As it is oft suggested on these pages that the truly committed  immigrant needs to immerse themselves totally in the social and political life of their adopted country, I thought it might be of interest to some to know that, perhaps regrettably, it isn't really happening on either side of the channel.

I presented my evening class with some photographs last night, in the context of a lesson to discuss UK politics. Ten students. All working in the UK, most here for some considerable time. NOT ONE could identify or name any of the following:
David Cameron
Nick Clegg
Ed Milliband
Boris Johnson
Ken Livingstone
The 3 main UK political parties.

Incidentally, these are not holiday home owners here in the UK, they're permanent residents with jobs who pay UK taxes. They're also ALL very fluent in English.

[/quote]

Very interesting observation and does show that perhaps there is little difference in the way some immigrants think and feel in any country.

Personally I obviously know who the French President is and could possibly recognise him face to face (news photo's often make them look a bit different than real life and of course that's not just politicians either). I also like Christine Lagarde, former finance minster and now director of the IMF and can recognise her. As to members of the current French cabinet and the French PM I have no idea. Speaking for myself I see little point because I get no say about who is in power at a national level, I have no choice (with the exception of leaving of course) in their policies because I can't vote for a change. I do know people at a local level because they do effect my day to day life and of course I am allowed to vote for them. I know my mayor and see him most days as I walk my dogs past his house. I know most of the council members because I am on the Fete committee as are most of them.

I am not sure where you live or where your 'grass pole' was taken so I can't say if they should or shouldn't know who Boris is. I would be interesting to know if the people you asked felt a similar way to myself. Did you ask why they did not have any particular interest in who these people are?

I know the French in the UK seem to stick together. My daughter lives at Hampstead and I have walked down through Belsize Park where there are thousands of French living and French is the main language on the street (quite a shock when I first went there). I understand most of the Australians have moved out from Earls Court now and that's been 'taken over' by French. There are, or so I have read, large French populations in Nottingham, Leicester and Brighton. I read somewhere that the French population in London now equals that of Lille.

[Hoddy]

That is interesting Betty.

I wonder what sort of response you would get from a similar group of 'native' English ?

On the other thread about the Jubilee some seem to suppose that a long stay in France means you know all there is to know about it. I was thinking as I read that lots of French people don't know everything about France. I've had several pieces of misinformation from locals. Perhaps what one knows depends on how interested one is or needs to be

I don't blame your students for not knowing the current set of colourless zombies.

Hoddy

.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Hoddy"]That is interesting Betty.

I wonder what sort of response you would get from a similar group of 'native' English ?

On the other thread about the Jubilee some seem to suppose that a long stay in France means you know all there is to know about it. I was thinking as I read that lots of French people don't know everything about France. I've had several pieces of misinformation from locals. Perhaps what one knows depends on how interested one is or needs to be

I don't blame your students for not knowing the current set of colourless zombies.

Hoddy

.[/quote]

I don't think anybody would ever claim to know all there is to know about anywhere, but there is a greater chance of knowing what the people in a particular country are thinking about something if you are there with them discussing things everyday in their language, watching the TV and reading the papers   than if you only visit for short periods, especially if that is combined with a shaky understanding of what is being said.

That seems so obvious to me that I can't see why it is ever a basis for contention, yet it seems to cause resentment.

[idun]

I admit that I don't really know the current french politicans, but it was interesting during the elections as I knew who most of the 'oldies' were.

I am slightly disappointed in Betty's students though. They should have known some of these people.

 

[Russethouse]

LOL My friend who lives in France often says I'm beter informed on some things than she is and that comes simply from reading this forum! [:)]

[YCCMB]

On my last visit to France, my neighbour filled me in on all the latest gossip about William and Kate (yawn) but seemed to have a lot to say.

My students....oh, let me see... at the moment I have 4 Spaniards (one Spanish girl has a French BF from Nontron) three Hungarians, an Austrian, a Thai, and a Lithuanian. Numbers peter out a bit in our classes towards the upper levels of competence, and they will, at the end of this term take exams in speaking, listening, reading and writing, so my competence or incompetence as a teacher will be judged on whether or not they are successful, given that a fair number of them are returning students and are taking exams at a higher level. Ten students is more manageable than a few years back, when I started the term with a class of 48. But then, the students I have now are paying for their lessons.....

Perhaps the more interesting issue is whether the students are very fluent despite their attendance at lessons or because of it. Most of them are very assiduous about doing homework and applying themselves to developing their fluency and grammar skills. Perhaps, based on Norman's observation, I should suggest they give up as I have nothing to teach them? Oddly, when questioned as to their reasons for attendance, the majority will say that they want to improve, yet if their written work were to be compared with that of a UK 6th former then my lot would win hands down for spelling and grammar!

In answer to the other questions regarding their interest in UK politics (or lack thereof), some are probably too busy working to have time to take an interest ( a fair few in this class work in hospitality and most are pulling double shifts as their hotels have been full due to the PGA championship and the "wedding season"). Nevertheless, we had a very animated discussion about the topic and they all wanted to know and understand more. They weren't just being polite, either. I encourage them not to be, as it serves no purpose either for them or me. The majority were unaware that they had any voting rights in the UK, as EU nationals.

 Do they read UK papers? Generally, no. I can say this of the majority of my students over a period of some years. Some do watch UK TV, but, just like many Brits in France, they have the option to watch TV from "home" and tend to prefer doing so.

Their immersion in UK life and culture comes, rightly or wrongly, from working here. Something which may not lead them to know what the PM looks like, but does teach them quite a lot about other aspects of UK life!

[NormanH]

Their immersion in UK life and culture comes, rightly or wrongly, from

working here.

Exactly my point. Holiday home owners (apart from those with your knowledge of the language and History) are unlikely to have that immersion.

Full-time residents who work or run a business, are forced into a  daily contact which  in my case leads to discussion of other issues than just the pragmatic, and a discourse which goes beyond the phatic.

[Patf]

I can understand Cameron Clegg and Milliband not being recognised - they're all of an age, dress alike, rather bland. And to me most of the top french male politicians look alike, except Sarkozy.

But Ken and Boris! Especially if your students live in London.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="NormanH"]

Their immersion in UK life and culture comes, rightly or wrongly, from

working here.

Exactly my point. Holiday home owners (apart from those with your knowledge of the language and History) are unlikely to have that immersion.

Full-time residents who work or run a business, are forced into a  daily contact which  in my case leads to discussion of other issues than just the pragmatic, and a discourse which goes beyond the phatic.

[/quote]

To be fair, Norman, I think it depends quite a lot on what you're doing for a job. The catering and hospitality trades here (locally, but also in London itself) are, these days, almost exclusively staffed by non-UK nationals. The students I have at the moment, of whom a number work in two local hotels, are in a working environment where the majority of their co-workers are no more British than they are. It goes right up the chain of command: this class has the front-of-house manager (from the Canary Islands), the housekeeping manager (Hungarian: and, by her own admission - for her English is outstandingly good - coming to lessons because she rarely has the chance to speak to anyone at all at work) and three waitresses. Many of the kitchen staff, from porters to chefs, are East European, and there are also a fair number of Sri Lankans. None are really in a position to stop and have a meaningful conversation with the Hotel's guests, even assuming that a small percentage of the latter were to be British themselves.

[Quillan]

I think it very much depends on the individual. Some people, both resident and holiday home owners, just can't be bothered. Bit like the group I know of in Quillan which is why I stay away from them. The reason I stay away from them is because quite frankly they are a bunch of wallies and I wouldn't make friends with them anywhere, even in the UK. The other problem is that sometimes because they know your English they 'drag' you in to things as a translator and believe me with my standard of French I am not the best person to ask anyway.

Others on the other hand start learning the hard way because they have to. You can't turn up at the big Brico places and say you want a bath, sink, toilet and all the fixtures and fitting that go with them. I spend hours going over dictionaries trying to string it all together, wrote it down and 'cribbed' from it in the Brico. Sad thing was the guy turned round and said "So its a bath etc you want then" in excellent English. Turn out he was the only English speaking person in the shop. I asked if I could try and carry on in French else I will never learn (seeing as it had taken me about two hours at home to work it all out). That's the other problem, I know one or two, ex Parisians' who speak English and want to speak it with me and it difficult to ask if we can stay in French mode else I will never learn.

The bottom line is that your in a country that speaks a different language. Some people have an attitude of "OK lets get on with it" because you can't rely on people to translate all the time, the natives don't speak English so you have to learn the lingo as it were or you simply won't get anything done.

By the way for very technical stuff like visits to the Tresor Public I still take a translator because I am scared on missing something or getting the wrong end of the stick. Same with the hospital when I had my operation because I had to explain about the drugs I take and how long I have had my 'conditions'. I am getting a lot better and my confidence is growing which is important. I have also found that you can ask a question a different way round when you can't think of the word for an object for example.

I can see now that if you don't speak even the basic French you are going to miss out on quite a bit. Exactly the same can be said of course for Betty's students in the UK and they sound like they are doing a better job of learning English than me learning French and good for them.

[idun]

re speaking english or french.............unless they are very very good friends and then I wouldn't be bothered. I always keep on speaking french when french people speak english to me in France. If they want to continue in english, well so be it.

[NormanH]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"][quote user="NormanH"]

Their immersion in UK life and culture comes, rightly or wrongly, from

working here.

Exactly my point. Holiday home owners (apart from those with your knowledge of the language and History) are unlikely to have that immersion.

Full-time residents who work or run a business, are forced into a  daily contact which  in my case leads to discussion of other issues than just the pragmatic, and a discourse which goes beyond the phatic.

[/quote]

To be fair, Norman, I think it depends quite a lot on what you're doing for a job. The catering and hospitality trades here (locally, but also in London itself) are, these days, almost exclusively staffed by non-UK nationals. The students I have at the moment, of whom a number work in two local hotels, are in a working environment where the majority of their co-workers are no more British than they are. It goes right up the chain of command: this class has the front-of-house manager (from the Canary Islands), the housekeeping manager (Hungarian: and, by her own admission - for her English is outstandingly good - coming to lessons because she rarely has the chance to speak to anyone at all at work) and three waitresses. Many of the kitchen staff, from porters to chefs, are East European, and there are also a fair number of Sri Lankans. None are really in a position to stop and have a meaningful conversation with the Hotel's guests, even assuming that a small percentage of the latter were to be British themselves.

[/quote]

Thanks for that very illuminating post, which shows that I myself am a prisoner of the same syndrome of which I spoke (i.e. the fact that I am a very occasional visitor  to Britain only once this century) and so lack the very same contacts with daily realities that I bewail in  others in France

[YCCMB]

In fact, only a few years ago I was contracted to teach English at Wentworth Golf club, where almost the entire housekeeping and kitchen staff were Polish. They could run a very tight ship behind the scenes without ever needing to speak English between them, but the management staff needed to ensure that they all received the legally-required H&S training and, as no-one could deliver THAT in Polish, the Poles had to be brought up to speed with enough English to grasp the important points!

[Russethouse]

[quote user="idun"]

re speaking English or french.............unless they are very very good friends and then I wouldn't be bothered. I always keep on speaking french when french people speak English to me in France. If they want to continue in English, well so be it.

[/quote]

Why ? If people want to practice their English, why not give them the opportunity ? No doubt they appreciate it, or do you feel they are being condescending or  judgemental about your language skills ?

[Quillan]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]In fact, only a few years ago I was contracted to teach English at Wentworth Golf club, where almost the entire housekeeping and kitchen staff were Polish. They could run a very tight ship behind the scenes without ever needing to speak English between them, but the management staff needed to ensure that they all received the legally-required H&S training and, as no-one could deliver THAT in Polish, the Poles had to be brought up to speed with enough English to grasp the important points!
[/quote]

Did any of them dance ?

[idun]

[quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="idun"]

re speaking English or french.............unless they are very very good friends and then I wouldn't be bothered. I always keep on speaking french when french people speak English to me in France. If they want to continue in English, well so be it.

[/quote]

Why ? If people want to practice their English, why not give them the opportunity ? No doubt they appreciate it, or do you feel they are being condescending or  judgemental about your language skills ?

[/quote]

I don't feel like anyone is being anything at all, with one exception. If I had ever had a complex about my french I think I'd have had to quit France very quickly and a very long time ago. I try and I do my best and I do OK.

 In a business situation, I prefer to know what people are saying in french and not english. And if they speak english, I'll confirm in french what they are telling me. As the french would say, 'c'est normal'. But I'm never snotty about it incidentally.

 

 

[YCCMB]

No, Quillan, but a couple vaulted....

Idun, I am 100% with you. Even if I ring an English-speaking helpline (which I sometimes do because it's the number I have), I ask them if I can speak French. I've said before, it's nothing to do with being clever or anything, it's simply that I know when my French might be a bit shaky, but I can put my point across and make myself understood, and I know when I'm not expressing myself well. If someone's speaking English to me and it's not their native language, I can never be 100% sure that they're giving me all the information they could give if they were speaking their own language. In other words, I'd rather speak French because then I'm in control of the conversation.

[NormanH]

I'd rather speak French because then I'm in control of the conversation.

That sense of being in control I feel in the opposite sense.

In a serious situation I  always prefer that French people speak in French (for example when they give me a diagnosis of cancer) because I am sure they know exactly what they are saying, and I need that reassurance of their compliance.

I even have a running joke with my surgeon whose wife is an English teacher about this In this situation there is no need for control from me, and of course I have a perfect understanding of what is being said.

On the other hand when I have some sort of contact with one of the utility services about a bill or  something similar I enjoy the power game  of putting them on the back foot by imitating the typical   British holiday home owner, and demanding an English speaking helpline.

It's fun making the so called 'English speakers' sweat on a few colloquialisms and of course it completely reverses the sense of who is in charge..

[YCCMB]

I think we're actually saying the same thing, Norman...but in different ways. For example, some time ago I used FT's "English speaking" helpline to get our phone line installed. In line, no doubt, with the marketing directives given to staff, the lady was giving me the hard sell on internet connections to go along with the phone. At that time, and I believe now it's different, because the option to "switch off" the internet is available - if a somewhat tortuous process - I knew I would end up paying for internet even when not in France. If the conversation had taken place in English, I wouldn't have been able to probe and find out that it really wasn't in my interests to opt for internet. Likewise with CA and their insurance...they refused to insure my scooter, (in English, telling me they didn't do scooter insurance....ha!) so I told them (in French)that several other companies had offered to do so, providing I moved all my other insurances to them, and lo, after being asked to hold the line for a moment, my English speaker reverted to French and offered me quite a reasonable quote. For me, it boils down to the fact that if you're able to ask the right questions in French, the person on the other end can't really wriggle out of answering them. It's also difficult, at a later date, to try and pretend that they DID inform you in English, but you misunderstood.