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Time to stop this nonsense NOW


woolybanana
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Well actually my French neighbours are JW's and thats what they told me (about fish).

Your last statement is very true. America has always persecuted people because of race, beliefs and their hatred of Muslims and Communists. Hell they even persecute some of their own for some of these beliefs. The only difference between the UK and the US is that UK governments tend to believe all the outrageous lies the Americans spew out and find them selves dragged in to illegal wars. Having said all that I would hardly put JW's and military personnel on the same footing. To be a soldier some level of intelligence is required.

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Then I think you are just as bigoted as those you are criticize, Q I'm afraid.

I may not be a JW anymore, heck I don't even believe in god anymore, but if you were to highlight just one group of christians that follow the bible properly, it would be the JWs. Unlike most other christian sects, they actually study the book, and most apply it to their lives and live by it. Military personnel only do as they are told, without question. JWs seek answers for themselves, are encouraged to think for themselves and learn for themselves. Unlike soldiers, they do not kill either.

Now whose the more intelligent?

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But it's not human sacrifice. If the person has made a conscious decision to refuse blood treatment (which incidentally has only been available for not very long at all), then that is their choice.

The issue I do have with it, is when the decision is made for children. But I do not believe in baptising children either, religion should always be a personal choice.

But if the person has said no blood, then the doctors must respect that.

These people die for their belief in god. Is it really any different for a soldier dieing for their country?

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And I didn't think that JW's were christians. 

 My neighbour who is a practising JW said that there was god and christ was lesser? I supposed that it meant that they did not believe in the trinity, which is what I thought that christianity was about.

 

This is a bit confusing for me, but I don't really need to be 'enlightened' either.[8-)]

 

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Absolutely JWs are Christians. In fact, they are probably closest to the original christians, as they have attempted to get all the pagan teachings out of christianity. that's why they do not celebrate things like christmas and easter because they have nothing to do with christianity.

The trinity was not introduced into doctrine until 325 CE I think at the council of Nicea by Emporer Constantinople. There is no mention of the trinity in the Bible, nor does Jesus ever claim to be god, but always the son of god.

In fact, if Jesus was god, how could he ever resurrect himself? It's illogical.

The trinity is the most confusing concept invented in christendom, and is why no church has ever been able to explain it because it makes no sense.

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[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Then I think you are just as bigoted as those you are criticize, Q I'm afraid.

I may not be a JW anymore, heck I don't even believe in god anymore, but if you were to highlight just one group of christians that follow the bible properly, it would be the JWs. Unlike most other christian sects, they actually study the book, and most apply it to their lives and live by it. Military personnel only do as they are told, without question. JWs seek answers for themselves, are encouraged to think for themselves and learn for themselves. Unlike soldiers, they do not kill either.

Now whose the more intelligent?
[/quote]

So the only true Christians are JW's then, now how can that be anything more than bigotry, how offencive is that to other Christian groups.

As to bible study, well the bible as you, I and others know it comes from an assembly of books bound together by Emperor Constantine and done so for political purposes. Many of the other books, some of which may actually have been written by people with first hand experience were excluded. Some of which were however saved and stored and have been found over the last few decades namely the Copper Scrolls and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Another argument put forward is that the bible was written by one person at the request of Constantine.

As to JW's not fighting well it's a tame excuse they use and not a valid one.

You mentioned the old story about people having heart bypass surgery without blood transfusions. This is another old urban myth. Like most operations you are always asked for your blood type but that does not automatically mean blood is going to be used except in an absolute emergency. If the blood substitute use by JW's is so good as to dramatically reduce recovery times one would have thought that this 'magic' substitute would be available to all which by your statement alone indicates it so not. Perhaps it's is kept in a secret place and not given to 'none believers' which actually goes against the bible teachings.

I think JW's are not better than extreme Muslims who use the bible, as the extreme Muslims use the Koran for their own means by twisting what it says.

Anyway moving on.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of those that say if a person needs a treatment but refuses it knowing what the outcome will be i.e. eventual death you can't actually throw them out of hospital. The reason for this is similar to my own experience where there was a drug addict in the same ward as me who went out every night to get a 'score'. I said to the nurse that if he was well enough to go out and buy his 'fix' then he was well enough to go be discharged. The reply was along the lines of that if something happened to him that could be associated with the reason he was in hospital for in the first place he, or his family, could sue them so they were obliged to keep him until he was 100% well.

 

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We are all different and unfortunately, CdLII is seemingly the only rep for the other side of the debate.

Q totally agree with you about slavishly following what it says in a book. I do not believe that there is a God or that Jesus Christ, if he existed, was as he is portrayed in the Bible which I have read a couple of times.

I find that religion is even more frightening when it get mixed in with politics - will be 'interesting' to see what happens in Egypt.

Will add that I am impressed with the control of people posting.

Paul 

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[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]  JWs seek answers for themselves, are encouraged to think for themselves and learn for themselves. 
Now whose [sic] the more intelligent?
[/quote]

I've always thought that intelligence was the ability to think and act accordingly; following some dictat that blood is unacceptable as a result of minor view doctrine in the 21st century is perverse not intelligent.
Life is the single most valuable thing, denial of which is the biggst sin; anyone requiring hospitalisation should be signing themselves over to advice and practice therein, certainly not attempting to overule best practice.

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[quote user="just john "]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]  JWs seek answers for themselves, are encouraged to think for themselves and learn for themselves. 

Now whose [sic] the more intelligent?

[/quote]

I've always thought that intelligence was the ability to think and act accordingly; following some dictat that blood is unacceptable as a result of minor view doctrine in the 21st century is perverse not intelligent.

Life is the single most valuable thing, denial of which is the biggst sin; anyone requiring hospitalisation should be signing themselves over to advice and practice therein, certainly not attempting to overule best practice.

[/quote]

It is something that is rarely an issue.

If life is so precious, why do so many people sign up for military service, knowing there is a good chance they will die for their country? They will die for their beliefs? It's no different, is it?

I am batting for the JWs here, but I do want to make it clear that I am no longer one, I do not believe in god, but I do believe JC existed, and I still do believe in many of his teachings. I also believe that if the bible is true, they have the closest accurate interpretation of the bible. The true christian life is a tough one.

I am grateful for my experiences as one, although I always hated doing the door to door stuff. It was certainly an interesting period of my life and I met some amazing people there. But ultimately, it wasn't for me, and it led to a greater understanding of myself.

So, I felt I had to take up the challenge and at least try to put across the other side of the coin to this debate. I'm very rusty though, it's been quite a few years since I did anything like this.

So I'll sign off on this one, an atheist, batting a little for the JWs. :)

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[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"] Military personnel only do as they are told, without question. JWs seek answers for themselves, are encouraged to think for themselves and learn for themselves. Unlike soldiers, they do not kill either.

Now whose the more intelligent?

[/quote]

Whilst not central to this discussion about JWs, I question your comment that Military personnel do as they are told without question, or that they are sent out to ''murder'' ( a previous comment of your ).

You seem to have a singular lack of knowledge regarding the Military ethos and behaviour. Whilst Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen (and women of course ) are, by definition, required to obey orders, those orders are required to be legal - murder is not and would, in any Western Military environment be questioned / not obeyed. The Military are not unthinking immoral / amoral thugs who kill anyone on demand, far from it. The modern soldier has to be a rational, thinking (and questioning) adult, if he / she is not ( yes - mistakes happen ) they do not last long in the Military environment.
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[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]
It is something that is rarely an issue.

If life is so precious, why do so many people sign up for military service, knowing there is a good chance they will die for their country? They will die for their beliefs? It's no different, is it?

[/quote]

So on that basis in 1914 and 1939 if the British thought along those lines then Britain would not have had the military forces to defend itself and the Germans would have marched right in, Jews etc exterminated and, should my ancestors have survived, I would be typing this in German. Sometimes turning the other cheek is extremely painful.

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Also the prime object of the military is not to kill people but to be a deterrent. That's something that is instilled in to you when you join up (well in the UK it is).

The conflicts that the UK, US and a couple of other countries are currently involved in are, allegedly, to stop terrorism and in particular the extreme Muslim terrorists. These terrorist, or so we are told, want us all to submit to the Koran, more importantly their twisted interpretation of the Koran. Therefore, logically those countries involved are fighting to protect Christian beliefs of all Christian groups including JW's.

The bible is a very clever book. It threatens people with the wrath of God should you ignore the believes within it and it also, via the Ten Commandments, has provided Christian countries and much of the world with the basic laws to govern.

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[quote user="PaulT"]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]

It is something that is rarely an issue.

If life is so precious, why do so many people sign up for military service, knowing there is a good chance they will die for their country? They will die for their beliefs? It's no different, is it?

[/quote]

So on that basis in 1914 and 1939 if the British thought along those lines then Britain would not have had the military forces to defend itself and the Germans would have marched right in, Jews etc exterminated and, should my ancestors have survived, I would be typing this in German. Sometimes turning the other cheek is extremely painful.

[/quote]

Using your logic there, had the Germans also thought along those lines, then there wouldn't have been a war to start with.

Funny you should mention about the Jews, because German JWs were put in the same camps as the Jews. The German JWs were the few people with the guts to make a stand against Hitler and refuse to bow down to his leadership. I imagine that would have taken a great deal of courage to do. The Jews had the star, the JWs had the purple triangle. I knew an elderly German JW woman, she was split from her family as a young girl, and never saw her parents again as they were all put into separate camps. She managed to live through it.

Their logic is that this world will end, and a new one will be formed. They do not believe we go to heaven when we die (which incidentally, the bible doesn't say we do go to heaven when we die either), but resurrected on earth, to live how was originally intended (as Adam & Eve before they sinned). There is so much pagan influence in today's christianity that it can be hard to see. It's why if I ever did believe in god again, I could never go into one of the mainstream christian religions.

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[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Absolutely JWs are Christians. In fact, they are probably closest to the original christians, as they have attempted to get all the pagan teachings out of christianity. that's why they do not celebrate things like christmas and easter because they have nothing to do with christianity.

The trinity was not introduced into doctrine until 325 CE I think at the council of Nicea by Emporer Constantinople. There is no mention of the trinity in the Bible, nor does Jesus ever claim to be god, but always the son of god.

In fact, if Jesus was god, how could he ever resurrect himself? It's illogical.

The trinity is the most confusing concept invented in christendom, and is why no church has ever been able to explain it because it makes no sense.
[/quote]

 

Yet again surprised by this post. As you say in your last sentence, 'it makes no sense'. [:D] Well none of it makes any sense to me and didn't either when I was a child.

In France we had JW's round. They started by asking me if I wanted to find something like the 'joy' of god, and I said, that whatever they believed in, it didn't seem to be bringing them much 'joy' as they were the most miserable people I had ever met.

And the girl we knew who is back to being a JW. Well what can I say, she was always a happy slapper and if she puts as much happiness and enticement into her current mission, then she may well, do well with getting converts.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

Also the prime object of the military is not to kill people but to be a deterrent. That's something that is instilled in to you when you join up (well in the UK it is).

The conflicts that the UK, US and a couple of other countries are currently involved in are, allegedly, to stop terrorism and in particular the extreme Muslim terrorists. These terrorist, or so we are told, want us all to submit to the Koran, more importantly their twisted interpretation of the Koran. Therefore, logically those countries involved are fighting to protect Christian beliefs of all Christian groups including JW's.

The bible is a very clever book. It threatens people with the wrath of God should you ignore the believes within it and it also, via the Ten Commandments, has provided Christian countries and much of the world with the basic laws to govern.

[/quote]

That's fine, but remember when Christ was around, people were wanting him to save them from the Romans? That wasn't Christ's mission at all, and you can see many accounts in the bible where people of god have been under foreign rule or oppression. JWs exist in countries where it is illegal to preach. Even the French government has greatly restricted their movement, yet they still do it, oppressed or not. And many would continue under this oppression. It's not about being physically free, so much mentally free. In some ways that takes even greater courage.

But, it is their personal choice, and as long as it harms no one, where is the problem?

I also wonder how many christians were murdering one another during all these wars over the ages. This is another reason JWs don't fight. They put their god above their nation (which all leaders profess to do too), and so if their country goes to war with another, how could they potentially be expected to kill one of their own because their leaders disagree on something?

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[quote user="idun"]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Absolutely JWs are Christians. In fact, they are probably closest to the original christians, as they have attempted to get all the pagan teachings out of christianity. that's why they do not celebrate things like christmas and easter because they have nothing to do with christianity.

The trinity was not introduced into doctrine until 325 CE I think at the council of Nicea by Emporer Constantinople. There is no mention of the trinity in the Bible, nor does Jesus ever claim to be god, but always the son of god.

In fact, if Jesus was god, how could he ever resurrect himself? It's illogical.

The trinity is the most confusing concept invented in christendom, and is why no church has ever been able to explain it because it makes no sense.

[/quote]

 

Yet again surprised by this post. As you say in your last sentence, 'it makes no sense'. [:D] Well none of it makes any sense to me and didn't either when I was a child.

In France we had JW's round. They started by asking me if I wanted to find something like the 'joy' of god, and I said, that whatever they believed in, it didn't seem to be bringing them much 'joy' as they were the most miserable people I had ever met.

And the girl we knew who is back to being a JW. Well what can I say, she was always a happy slapper and if she puts as much happiness and enticement into her current mission, then she may well, do well with getting converts.

[/quote]

I can't speak for individuals, but most of the people in my congregation always seemed happy.

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I wonder if the young JW girl in the concentration camp was displeased when the allied soldiers arrived and freed her then afterwards fed her. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that she was very pleased indeed and probably didn't care that many people gave their lives and killed to accomplish her freedom.

I don't in general have a problem with JW's. As I said my neighbours are JW's and we get on very well, helping each other out, feeding each others animals when we take a holiday etc. It's what you do in life, help people. My only sticking point is this blood thing. Whatever my beliefs I could not sit by and what a much loved member of my family die when I know for sure there is a fix like giving them something as simple as blood. The JW thinking that God will fix it often falls short because he does not and the person dies. Of course the stock "get out of jail free" answer will be "well it's Gods will" which quite frankly, in this day and age, does not work.

As to the comments about which religious group kills whom over the centuries that is something I totally agree with. I always say that I don't have a problem with God just religion which is why I would love to see it banned. I have also always believed that rather than let people fight world leaders who want to engage in war should be put in a locked room with a sword each and the last man (or woman) left standing is the winner. I doubt you would get many takers on the basis that most are cowards and the thought of having to get their own hands 'dirty' would stop them immediately.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

I wonder if the young JW girl in the concentration camp was displeased when the allied soldiers arrived and freed her then afterwards fed her. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that she was very pleased indeed and probably didn't care that many people gave their lives and killed to accomplish her freedom.

I don't in general have a problem with JW's. As I said my neighbours are JW's and we get on very well, helping each other out, feeding each others animals when we take a holiday etc. It's what you do in life, help people. My only sticking point is this blood thing. Whatever my beliefs I could not sit by and what a much loved member of my family die when I know for sure there is a fix like giving them something as simple as blood. The JW thinking that God will fix it often falls short because he does not and the person dies. Of course the stock "get out of jail free" answer will be "well it's Gods will" which quite frankly, in this day and age, does not work.

As to the comments about which religious group kills whom over the centuries that is something I totally agree with. I always say that I don't have a problem with God just religion which is why I would love to see it banned. I have also always believed that rather than let people fight world leaders who want to engage in war should be put in a locked room with a sword each and the last man (or woman) left standing is the winner. I doubt you would get many takers on the basis that most are cowards and the thought of having to get their own hands 'dirty' would stop them immediately.

[/quote]

Of course, I can't speak for her, but knowing the woman she is (or was now, I dare say she's probably dead now), she would have cared deeply, and been very sorry about all the deaths. I saw her reaction to the 9/11 attacks, and how sorrowful she was about that.

I do agree with you on the blood thing. I never had to deal with the issue as I was much younger when I was a JW so I let that go until such time I would have to deal with it. Thankfully I didn't have to. If it was a loved one in need of blood and I was still a member, I don't know what I would have done in that situation. Depends on how great my faith was at the time I guess, and my loved one's wishes of course. If it were a child, I would probably have said ok to give the blood, and then taken the responsibility up with the almighty as and when. But the child wouldn't be condemned for it as it would have been my decision.

Although I am not religious, I do think on the whole religion does help bring together a sense of community, and for that I have no issue with it. But it's the extremists in everything that spoil it for the majority. I don't think banning religion would do a thing, because extremists will always find something else to use as a tool for their inbred hatred. I too would love to see leaders have a punch up and leave the rest of us out of it, but sadly that will never happen.

As I say, I am an atheist now, but I wanted to come in and try to at least provide some perspective from the other side.

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I personally find it one of the saddest and most worrying features of the human character that so many feel the need to be controlled by others.

Religion has always been used by the powerful to control the masses. Kings have changed religion simply because they have found something that seemed more effective in keeping people in their place.

The church binds itself to the establishment to make sure its superstitious drivel is perpetuated. Governments go along with it because it maintains the status quo. They even introduce laws to prevent people from openly questioning the situation. Opposing religious groups, however repugnant, are protected because they justify the existence of the official religion as a barrier.

Thousands and thousands of years of evolution to produce a human brain with the potential to provide so much good - and largely wasted because of a silly flaw that prevents it from being used for the true benefit of the human race.

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[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"] If it were a child, I would probably have said ok to give the blood, and then taken the responsibility up with the almighty as and when. But the child wouldn't be condemned for it as it would have been my decision.

[/quote]

Think you will find that in the UK where a parent has stopped a doctor giving a needed transfusion to a child it goes to court where a judge unfailingly orders the transfusion.

As for Germans not fighting well, they had a superb orator as their leader who told them of the riches to be gained, just as some religions do.

Paul

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[quote user="PaulT"]

[quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"] If it were a child, I would probably have said ok to give the blood, and then taken the responsibility up with the almighty as and when. But the child wouldn't be condemned for it as it would have been my decision.

[/quote]

Think you will find that in the UK where a parent has stopped a doctor giving a needed transfusion to a child it goes to court where a judge unfailingly orders the transfusion.

As for Germans not fighting well, they had a superb orator as their leader who told them of the riches to be gained, just as some religions do.

Paul

[/quote]

Yet some still had the insight to see what he was doing was wrong, and make a stand against it.

Don't know about UK law, doesn't apply to me. I was a JW for about 4 years when I lived in Australia.

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